Thousands dead in Burmese cyclone

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Damn, that's scary...

[Tsukiyumi]

Newest figures I've seen on this put the death toll nearer to 100k now. Hell of a storm, whatever you call it.

[Teaos]

And more will die due to sickness ect.

[stitch626]

And water pollution. And rioting. And other unexplained occurences.
I wish so many people didn't die, but what can be done?

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

And water pollution. And rioting. And other unexplained occurences.
I wish so many people didn't die, but what can be done?

Any word on relief organizations? Although considering what I've heard... might not do too much good.

[Duskofdead]

And water pollution. And rioting. And other unexplained occurences.
I wish so many people didn't die, but what can be done?

Any word on relief organizations? Although considering what I've heard... might not do too much good.

Cargo planes from the U.S. started landing today. And part of the reason for the delay was paranoia. It doesn't help that our admin insists on calling them BURMA, which is the previous name of the country before the present government took over. I'm not making excuses for their delays, they've acted like a crazy-eyed paranoid dictatorship (which is what they are basically) but it didn't help so far as getting them to trust us to let us send military personnell into their country when we keep politically insisting they're an illegitimate government.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Thanks, Dusk. Yeah, calling them Burma, not so good. But the delays, even worse.

[Mikey]

Last word I heard was that US planes were still not allowed to land - even though the US clearly has the means to deliver aid extaordinarlily quickly, e.g. the tsunami; UN planes were finally allowed to land after two days, but UN crews have NOT been allowed visas.

[Teaos]

They say they will let aid in but they want to control it totally.

[Duskofdead]

They say they will let aid in but they want to control it totally.

Look I wish the aid could have been there sooner and helped more just like everyone else, but these kind of comments are a pretty big double standard. Did the U.S. just let any old country send military personnel in with aid and wander the disaster site unsupervised? Heck we wouldn't even ACCEPT gasoline offered by Hugo Chavez which he suggested could be used to power hospital power generators and such.

Yeah, it's sick that politics gets involved in life or death situations, but it's unrealistic to think any country is just going to let other countries enter carte blanche. And Myanmar being a dictatorship was of course expectably more closed and paranoid about it than usual.

[Teaos]

What about aid agencies?

[Duskofdead]

What about aid agencies?

I can't speak about any other countries, but the U.S. was trying to get in with military cargo planes and had navy ships waiting in international waters. I'm not defending Myanmar, I'm just saying that anyone competent should have seen they'd react without enthusiasm to that.

[Mikey]

And keeping the U.N. aid waiting? And then refusing to allow visas for the U.N. crews? General paranoia, or specific fear of the U.S., doesn't explain those issues.

All in all, it's a tragedy; but if they don't want our help - which was available for faster delivery and distribution than anything else - then fine. Turn the planes around and come home. And don't let me hear Myanmar asking for help in the future.

[Duskofdead]

And keeping the U.N. aid waiting? And then refusing to allow visas for the U.N. crews? General paranoia, or specific fear of the U.S., doesn't explain those issues.

All in all, it's a tragedy; but if they don't want our help - which was available for faster delivery and distribution than anything else - then fine. Turn the planes around and come home. And don't let me hear Myanmar asking for help in the future.

Well this is why diplomats and ambassadors are supposed to have jobs. Not everyone thinks and acts the same way. Some of it is cultural too. The reason you will never see Japan, China, N. Korea etc. back down and openly admit being wrong on an international issue with the U.S. is not because they are necessarily vicious monster governments incapable of seeing sense, but cultural. There are issues of saving face and never appearing weak, etc. That's why the Bush policy of "if they rattle a saber, threaten them with nuclear annihiliation" was so incredibly stupid if the true intent was ever to make any actual progress or headway. Of course that may not have been the goal at all, but merely to make really strong posturing for effect at home. But I think you get the point.

At any rate, yes, Myanmar has a bad government, but at this point if the concern is for the people and not for our own positive self-image, we should have competent people advising competent government and inter-governmental decisionmakers how to most effectively get hoops jumped through or bypassed to make this work, and that hasn't happened. And at least on the U.S.'s end, there has never been any such effort- hell, our Preisdent and first lady refuse to even call the country by its new political name. Our whole attitude has been more "do it our way, on our terms, on our say so, or go screw yourself." And you simply can't get things done effectively with that attitude, especially with a military or dictatorial government who will appear weak and undermined by acquiescing, no matter how bad they may want and need international help secretly.

Don't be naive-- we may think what's really going on here is we're just trying to help. But speaking just for the U.S., the history of relations and public statements and the way an attempt to get aid in with regard to Myanmar have been handled in the Bush Admin, trust me, the political implications come first. We (as just normal Joe Shmoe people) don't enjoy thinking that anyone, least of all our own elected leaders, could sink this low, but I don't think they view this as a horrible tragedy we genuinely want to help in, except insofar as the American people expect our government to make the effort. Hell, I don't think they gave a crap about Katrina except how it affected their reputation, and those were OUR people. I think this was a grabbed opportunity to put a foreign dictatorship we hold in contempt in a very awkward situation by demanding they yield control and letting our personnel in, which would have the added side benefit of humiliating Myanmar's government. And they'd trot out Laura two months later to talk about the generosity of the American people and how despicable it is that they have such an inhumane government. The irony of how our own gov't responded to Katrina on our own soil would certainly not deter them since it hasn't stopped them so far from laying it on pretty thick.

So yeah... screw them, we'll take our aid and go home. That doesn't help us or the people of Myanmar, but if we're going to act like we are all 13 here then don't be surprised when diplomatic or concerted international endeavors like this one fail miserably.

[sunnyside]

Did we actually turn stuff down from them? I remember Hugo having a blast criticising Bush but I also remember us accepting a million dollars from them.