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sunnyside wrote:[

Oh come on. I'm a Christian not a Jew and I know better than that.

The Jews didn't "abandon" it. They were driven out at swordpoint.

Actually they were forced out a couple times in their history, but they'd always managed to get back to some degree.

Before WWII there was already a sizable Jewish population in the area, particularily Jerusalem.

And a bit of it was sort of handed to them by the British, but most was taken by the Jews who had apperantly remembered how to fight after the holocaust. Britain actually tried to stop them a couple times, as did the Arabs.

I guess the point to that last bit being that Israel as it is now wasn't given to the jews, and I think Isreal was the only place that the Jews would have fought and died like that for. It also helping that the region was more or less in chaos anyway so a few thousand people with small arms was a sufficiant force to wage war with.

The annoying thing about Israel though is that it just won't stop trying to gain more land.

And? How does this change the fact that it wasn't theirs anymore or that the claim is based on a fairy tale?

Israel is an apartheid state and deserves every bit of condemnation it gets. The only reason it gets away with it's constant crap is that the xtian nutjobs need it for their prophecy to come to pass.

Edit: Is there any evidence that isn't religious in origin that the Jews have a claim to the land? They can't even find traces of a mass migration out of Egypt. Or that they wandered in the desert for forty years.

Not only is it on stolen land it is also financially proped up by the Untied states mainly and other first world countries.

It also gets on going military aid from the US amounting to 30 Biliion dollars! NYT

How about the few times the UN have tried to stop Israel pissing on everyone the US uses its Veto power to stop it.

How about the idea that a country founded for pure religious reasons is possible the stupidist thing anyone could ever do, in the history of humanity in this or any other alternate reality now and until the end of time.

EDIT:

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.

US Aid to Israel makes up ONE THIRD!! of total US forign aid. Money well spent. Who needs to feed the hungry or topple repressive governments when they can top up a illegal state.

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact

Summary
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

Link

Jeez, I knew the US gave a tonne of money to Israel, though I didn't think it was that much.

All of that is true, and I am not a citizen of Israel, nor am I inclined to defend everything it does. However, it IS a sovereign state; why does anyone here get to say that it has no right to be? By that logic, we should be able to go up to Kendall's neighborhood, annex it all, and call it "North Minnesota."

Mikey wrote:All of that is true, and I am not a citizen of Israel, nor am I inclined to defend everything it does. However, it IS a sovereign state; why does anyone here get to say that it has no right to be? By that logic, we should be able to go up to Kendall's neighborhood, annex it all, and call it "North Minnesota."

More like Michigan North. Anyways, Israel was created by the actions of terrorists who rapidly proceeded to kill and drive out the former inhabitants. Everyone here understands that Israel will never go away but at the least they should be made to integrated the rest of the population.

And the people who are seeking to "reclaim" that area are also terrorists who are looking to kill or drive out everyone who isn't them. An integrated state would be the solution, of course, but that's a little like trying to get a hungry alligator to take care of your pet quadrapelegic chicken.

Mikey wrote:And the people who are seeking to "reclaim" that area are also terrorists who are looking to kill or drive out everyone who isn't them. An integrated state would be the solution, of course, but that's a little like trying to get a hungry alligator to take care of your pet quadrapelegic chicken.

I'm sorry does one doing it make it ok for the rest? In anycase the Palestinians didn't start out that way. Would integration mean and end to Palestinian/Jewish violence? Probably not and Israel would cease to be a Jewish state but it would be the ethical thing to do.

I'm not really going to get involved in this debate due to lack of any real knowledge about this stuff, other than some of the history of the region, but as far as I'm concerned Israel should slice off part of itself and give it to the Palistinians for their own country. There, problem solved.
Well, okay, I'm sure there's millions of problems with that that I just don't see, but it's gotta be better than just letting the two groups kill each other for the rest of eternity.

even since the siege of jerusalem by the romans in 70AD, there has been jewish population in israel, through the chaliphates, crusader states and ottoman turk eras, my own personal view, is that hamas and its 'constitution' are too pugnacious and belligerent

Rochey wrote:I'm not really going to get involved in this debate due to lack of any real knowledge about this stuff, other than some of the history of the region, but as far as I'm concerned Israel should slice off part of itself and give it to the Palistinians for their own country. There, problem solved.
Well, okay, I'm sure there's millions of problems with that that I just don't see, but it's gotta be better than just letting the two groups kill each other for the rest of eternity.

You'd think so, right? But it's been tried. The Palestinians are so nuts that that isn't enough, and the Israelis are so nuts that some of them don't even want to do that much. The problem with that sort of solution is that land is merely a veneer or excuse for the problem; the real issue is a deep, non-rational hate on both parts.

Kendall - I'm not saying that it's OK for one just because it's OK for the other... the real truism is that it's not OK for either. All I'm saying is that one shouldn't judge one group differently from the other for doing the same thing. And, the Hebrews didn't start that way either.

of course many jews in israel,even some members of likud are secular, and so i hope that people don't associate the actions of the state of israel with world jewry, or even with the torah

Zionism and Judaism are NOT the same thing. However, Jewry - particularly American Jewry - has adopted Zionism as a platform almost unilaterally, so it has become a de facto identifying point of Judaism. I am not a Zionist - I believe in Israel's right to exist, but I do not blindly condone all of Israel's actions, nor do I feel like "less" of a Jew for never having (or intending to make) aaliyah.

Well actually there already is Palestinian land that is supposed to be theirs. And they're on it right new. Israel is just sort of slowly, day by day, taking it. Though even with their new wall they'd wind up giving a lot of it back.

As for the aid to Israel not that the figure given is over a 50 year span. So assuming the info is accurate it only comes to $8 per american per year. Which is still something.

But compared to the cost of going to war over there it isn't much. Though I'm not sure they actually prevent war over there.

Of course they did take out Iraqs nuclear power plant back in 1981. If Iraq had nukes I'm not sure if we could/would have stopped them from taking Kuwait, and that could have wound up costing us more.

Regardless I think the idea behind helping them now is that they're the only nation we can really really rely on in the region.

As for reintegrating all of Palestine, I'm not sure about it being ethical, but you can't just ask a nation to self destruct.

And I know you consider the bible to be fairy tales and taking that to an extreme can cloud your perceptions. But I assure you that we did not just make the Jewish people up sometime in the 1400's. And that area is their historical homeland taken from them, well, multiple times actually. But if you argue land should belong to whoever was there "first" the Jews have the credentials for that area. Particularily if you go for the Bible denying theories which have the Jews simply moving into a pretty much unihabited area instead of conquering it biblically.

sunnyside wrote:
Regardless I think the idea behind helping them now is that they're the only nation we can really really rely on in the region.

It's got nothing to do with that. Supporting Israel has cost the US a shiteload of trouble, from actual lives to international embarrassment, terrorist attcks and threats and military info sold to the Chinese. The US supports Israel because of the huge Jewish lobby (huge in the terms of money anyways) and because a good portion of the US thinks that they need Israel to kick off a certain end times prophecy.

As for allies in the area the US has: Eygpt, Jordan and Saudia Arabia.

As for reintegrating all of Palestine, I'm not sure about it being ethical, but you can't just ask a nation to self destruct.

Funny wasn't the same thing demanded of South Africa and an embargo placed on them? Guess it's different if Arabs are being oppressed.

And I know you consider the bible to be fairy tales and taking that to an extreme can cloud your perceptions. But I assure you that we did not just make the Jewish people up sometime in the 1400's.

I didn't say you did, I said there is no factual basis for their claims.

And that area is their historical homeland taken from them, well, multiple times actually.

I'm sure the Kurds, Armenians, First Nations and Aboriginals hearts are warmed by the support for the Jews.

But if you argue land should belong to whoever was there "first" the Jews have the credentials for that area.

Seems like the land actually belongs to the Egyptians then.

Particularily if you go for the Bible denying theories which have the Jews simply moving into a pretty much unihabited area instead of conquering it biblically.

That's not their claim though, Israel is theirs by divine right.

Kendall - I'm not saying that it's OK for one just because it's OK for the other... the real truism is that it's not OK for either. All I'm saying is that one shouldn't judge one group differently from the other for doing the same thing. And, the Hebrews didn't start that way either.

Personally I say fuck'em both and pull all support for the area. Once the oil runs out no one will care about the ME anyways.

Cpl Kendall wrote:The US supports Israel because of the huge Jewish lobby (huge in the terms of money anyways)

Funny wasn't the same thing demanded of South Africa and an embargo placed on them? Guess it's different if Arabs are being oppressed.

Here we go... the damn Jews all control the banks, the media, and state policy with our huge secret cabal (no pun intended.) Too bad nobody included me. Agan I have to ask why terrorists and murderers have to be characterized as being oppressed, and Jews have to be characterized as evil aggressors. Oh, wait, I know why - it's because we're not Christians.

Seems like the land actually belongs to the Egyptians then.

Nope. If you want to return it to someone with a documented historical imperial claim on it, go find a Hittite. Sinai was the only Egyptian region that Israel ever controlled, which was won fairly from Egypt, and subsequently voluntarily returned.

That's not their claim though, Israel is theirs by divine right.

Deliberate obfuscation. Claiming a history that is far older than Christian history, and which is inevitably bound up with Biblical thinking, is not the same as directly claiming divine right - and is, in fact, the same claim as that which the Palestinians make. But, it's OK if they do it... I guess it's only wrong if the Jews do it.