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ChakatBlackstar wrote:

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Jim wrote:
If they outlawed violent video games, American parents might actually have to "PARENT"... that's not going to happen.

Don't get me started, if I can spare two minutes to read the age warning and the back of the case, than the average shmuck has no excuse.

Exactly. If your kid is playing GTA III, don't be suprised when he starts swearing and stuff. They are the parent. It's their job to keep games they don't want their kids playing away from the kids, not the cooperations that make the games.

We need a liscence to fish, but any fool can have a kid... or 12.

Jim wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote:

Cpl Kendall wrote: Don't get me started, if I can spare two minutes to read the age warning and the back of the case, than the average shmuck has no excuse.

Exactly. If your kid is playing GTA III, don't be suprised when he starts swearing and stuff. They are the parent. It's their job to keep games they don't want their kids playing away from the kids, not the cooperations that make the games.

We need a liscence to fish, but any fool can have a kid... or 12.

What does that have to do with this discussion?

ChakatBlackstar wrote:

Jim wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote: Exactly. If your kid is playing GTA III, don't be suprised when he starts swearing and stuff. They are the parent. It's their job to keep games they don't want their kids playing away from the kids, not the cooperations that make the games.

We need a liscence to fish, but any fool can have a kid... or 12.

What does that have to do with this discussion?

I suppose a driving liscencce would be a better analogy. It means that parents should have to pass a class/test in order to be allowed to have a child.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:

Jim wrote:We need a liscence to fish, but any fool can have a kid... or 12.

What does that have to do with this discussion?

The point is that fishing, when all's said and done, has a very minor effect on society. The raising of children has a huge effect on society, and yet there are far more restrictions on the former than on the latter.

I suppose a driving liscencce would be a better analogy. It means that parents should have to pass a class/test in order to be allowed to have a child.

Unfortunately, the moment you suggest that you'll get labeled as a monster or dictator, regardless of how good an idea it is.

That sounds nice on paper but you'll never be able to effectivly enforce that.

I agree that there should be some restrictions set on parenting, such as the ability to provide for them, how much govt. assistance would be needed, if any (I'm on food stamps and MediCal, which is sort of like Medicaid, but only for Californians, and WIC, which is Women, Infants, and Children, and provides certain necessities like milk, eggs, cheese, cereal, juices, and baby formula for free, but only in limited quantities), and others. What drives me nuts is that some hoochie mama crack whore from the projects can have 13 or 14 kids and she's on all kinds of Govt. assistance, and then people wonder why taxes go up, the cost of living goes up, etc. I just don't get it!

Ok. First thing is that it's important to divide the discussion into two distinct types of school shooting. The first is the kind you would have heard about in the UK. Things like Columbine where multiple kids died and it happened where stuff like that doesn't usually happen.

Then there is the second kind. Shooting in rougher schools. This happens at a fairly frequent pace and you don't hear about it beyond the local news. Usually the story isn't all that "interesting". Someone called Jarel got shot in a school parking lot.

Unless someone holds a rally or something. For example.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/01/chi ... index.html
Apperently in that Chicago school district only having a dozen kids shot and killed is a good year (2-3 times that being a bad year). Say nothing of the number who get stabbed and/or beaten to death (Or ODed).

I'm given to understand that in some rough schools here in Philly this sort of thing is just day to day. I can tell you that once early in my graduate career I went down to one of them to help teach about nanotechnology.

I did this once and have avoided the area since.

Anyway for the second issue we just have some MAJOR issues in the US with an underclass with something of a racial identity and a culture of violence.


Now the first one is a bit harder to explain. That's usually in some nice suburb or something.
Now this does happen in other countries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1952869.stm
And frankly bombs(or poison) would probably be worse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

It isn't fair to blame it all on guns. In Switzerland every adult male was required to have a gun and the place didn't turn into a shooting gallery. And gun laws were incredibly lax in the US earlier in its history so it's not like guns are a new factor and thus able to explain a change.

Like others I think its a combination of things. From the glory they intend to get in the media to being unable to cope with life to not having been raised much at all.

(on that note. Violent video games may have their warning, but many parents simply do not care. Same goes for porn and certainly alcohol, often drugs. I would imagine this would be the case with your "Chavs" as well.)

Interesting and possibly relevant statistics. A while back in the US most marriages endend in divorce, most kids lived in some kind of "non traditional" home, and most kids are on some kind of psychiatric medication. I don't know what the actual numbers were, but the news often does a story when these kind of things cross the 50% mark or some other milestone. I've gotta think that matters. And I think part of the cause is that a lot of the kids are raised by parents who were once hippies, or generally rebels without a cause etc etc etc. America has been going through social revolution after social revolution.

I get the impression other countries have been stabler.

Rochey wrote:

I suppose a driving liscencce would be a better analogy. It means that parents should have to pass a class/test in order to be allowed to have a child.

Unfortunately, the moment you suggest that you'll get labeled as a monster or dictator, regardless of how good an idea it is.

In my opinion, there are some people (who shall remain nameless *cough Paris cough Hilton*) who should not be allowed to breed.

mwhittington wrote:...What drives me nuts is that some hoochie mama crack whore from the projects can have 13 or 14 kids and she's on all kinds of Govt. assistance, and then people wonder why taxes go up, the cost of living goes up, etc. I just don't get it!

*glancing upstairs* *checking empty wallet*

Yeah, that's a problem all right. For the record, I know for certain that the Columbine leader was on Prozac. As was the fellow who shot up his college last year (I don't remember which one).

stitch626 wrote:
In my opinion, there are some people (who shall remain nameless *cough Paris cough Hilton*) who should not be allowed to breed.

I'm sure the STD's have made her sterile by now.

Cpl Kendall wrote:I'm sure the STD's have made her sterile by now.

We can only hope.

OK, getting in late here. Rochey - it is NOT that bad. I'll be the first to declaim the problems in my country, but I love her. And to tell the truth, I'm getting a little tired of all the non-Americans around here who are quick to say how bad everything is in America, but act like their own lands have no problems at all.

Video games, music, etc. - quick anecdote: When I was running a record store for a major chain, I had an irate parent come in who wanted a refund for an opened, used CD - one with pretty bad language. When I said that it couldn't be returned, the parent complained that someone in my store sold that CD to a 12-year-old. I said, "Where were you when he bought it?" The father left with his tail between his legs. The point is, we live in a culture of "it's not my fault" and it's ridiculous. It's not my fault I'm an alcoholic; it's not my fault that I'm a junkie; it's not my fault I overeat; it's not my fault that I beat my wife, because that's what my dad did; etc., etc. I DON'T CARE WHOSE FAULT IT IS! JUST STOP!

*breathes deeply* rant over.

Part of the school shooting problem (the first one which Sunnyside discussed; the second has nothing to do with schools per se, it's just one forum in which gang/street violence occurs) is this attitude; parents expect the schools to raise their children, and the schools are mandated to over-diagnose kids and handle problems as if they were diseases. We had no ADHD when I was a kid; if you couldn't behave, you got punished - not dosed with Ritalin. So, the parents won't hold themselves accountable; teachers are discouraged from being accountable; now, who's going to teach these kids to be accountable?

I'll be the first to declaim the problems in my country, but I love her. And to tell the truth, I'm getting a little tired of all the non-Americans around here who are quick to say how bad everything is in America, but act like their own lands have no problems at all.

I'm just going to point out that the posts you may be getting at were made by people who are from the US. Nor am I implying that this is purely a US phenomenon, I just wanted to know why it happens there on nearly a weekly basis.

Rest of your post: agree entirely.

So, the parents won't hold themselves accountable; teachers are discouraged from being accountable; now, who's going to teach these kids to be accountable?

Out of curiosity, what sort of punishments do they have in the US for kids who are problematic?

Rochey wrote:

So, the parents won't hold themselves accountable; teachers are discouraged from being accountable; now, who's going to teach these kids to be accountable?

Out of curiosity, what sort of punishments do they have in the US for kids who are problematic?

Not enough. In my region, suspensions are all but a thing of the past, in-school (NOT after-school) detentions are still used somewhat, and teachers are told for the most part to leave discipline to the administration. This of course means that classroom management is taken away from the classroom manager - the teacher - and is instead handled by someone who is, at best, a third party to the issue.

Often, children with chronic discipline issues are referred to child study team, parent action committees, social workers, etc., for an interminable period - long enough to not be able to help the current situation - and treated to extra attention and the "it's not your fault, don't try to accept responsibility for your own actions" attitude. In some cases - sensory processing disorders, etc. - this is actually the right attitude, but the teacher who has first-hand professional knowledge of the situation is often disregarded in the process.