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So, would the Guild be the Dutch?

Deepcrush wrote:So, would the Guild be the Dutch?

Well played.

Mikey wrote:

Deepcrush wrote:So, would the Guild be the Dutch?

Well played.

I know. 8)

I'm in truth upset that seafort hasn't come. I would like to have a Brit on this topic to help balance things a bit.

I've never read Dune, so I'm in no position to comment one way or the other.

To quote Picard

DAMN!

Deepcrush wrote:To quote Picard

MERDE!

Fixed.

Then maybe you could speak on the differences of the forces involved in the Revolutionary War?

From what I've read, the comparisons seem to be based on the assumption that the war was a case of a conventional army against a guerilla army. It was not. While guerrillas were certainly involved, such tactics cannot on their own defeat regulars at a strategic level - they can only strike at minor detachments and supply routes, draining forces from the field army. Actual defeat can only be inflicted by a conventional force - in this case Washington's Continental Army, which proved itself incapable of inflicting a decisive defeat on the British forces until it received substantial French support. The critical part of this support was, of course, de Grasse's fleet, which was able to temporarily secure command of the entrance to the Chesapeake and prevent Cornwallis' reinforcement or evacuation from Yorktown. The surrender of his army severely undermined the British position in the colonies, and while it was not decisive in the military sense was enough to pursuade His Majesty's Government to concede the loss of the colonies.

Seems like a fairly rounded view.

Thank you.

Ironically, the final major battle of the American revolution involved no American forces at all, had no effect on the outcome of the war, and was one of the greatest victories in British history - the Battle of the Saintes, where Rodney utterly smashed de Grasse's fleet. If that battle had occured a year earlier, the last couple of centuries would have run a greatly different course.

I myself feel that the outcome of the war was both inevitable and best for the future.

First, while Yorktown ended the southern campaign by removing the only force left to match Washington. The north was already failing for England as holdings there had become slim.

Secondly. The frontiersmen and Indian fighters of the Proclamation regions while not able to openly fight British Regs as we all know. Were able to both hamper movement and supplies along with inflicting a constant stream of light losses. These same groups were used to often keep British troops nerved and withheld from sleep. Night time ambushes were common throughout the mid colonies. This had the added bonus of forcing most British units to stay close to open waterways as that was the only means of a sure resupply.

I've always felt that the end of the war in truth served England. England withdrew from the war, granted independence to the colonies and did so long before losing large numbers of troops or at the least the numbers lost by France. England's future wars with France may even have benefited from this. France and its Indian allies were badly weakened after the Seven Years War. England was able to expand its holdings, rebuild the minimal losses of the two earlier wars and finally secure its place as the world's Prime Navy. France on the other hand had lost a great deal of money and troops in the Seven Years War and (many times so later with Napoleon). Since Americans were able to support English forces by hampering French supply + troop movement and counter the native advantages. British armies needed fewer numbers in North America and allowed more support from those units in Europe. Though many people here in the US would like to think we had done a great damage to England, that just wasn't so. England did lose many troops but those losses were small next to the total of it's armies and even smaller next to that of the French.

In neither war could the colonies ever ever hope to win but, they did force their opponents into wars that were "No win" for either side. First this was against France, then to a lesser degree to England. Later in 1818 when the US found out about how France's action of stalling both wars between England and US. This caused the US begin open trade with England and even (in return for some pay of course) allowed privateers to raid French trade ships.

I have a theory that this last statement is when British + American relations really took off for the first time. That and the beginning of American hatred of France!

While what Seafort says is true regarding guerilla forces being unable to force a singular decisive defeat, their effectiveness in the grand scheme of things should not be undervalued. The Colonial irregulars were perhaps not able to send a redcoat battalion off the field, but they were able to sow confusion; disrupt communications; and cause all sorts of general havoc. There are particulars that perhaps didn't cause the war to end any erlier but were still highly effective and groundbreaking, and showed considerable insight for militia/irregulars, as compared to regimented infantry. For one example: the order at the Battle of Breed's Hill (popularly misnamed Bunker Hill) to not fire until you see the whites of their eyes showed a commonly unseen understanding of the limitations of the firearms of the times. Another example: Ethan Allen's, et. al., use of tree-mounted snipers to target officers rather than phalanxed infantry to target... well, the first line of the opposing phalanx, was again an innovative and effective practice.

Just to jump in. The Fremen weren't set up as colonists by any of the groups in power by the time of the Dune book. They were already there when humans were still fighting the Machines. The actual colonists were up in the north and didn't revolt.

It would be like if the Native Americans found that the stuff they smoked actually did let them see the future. And then they got ginormous doom buffalow somewhere.

That fits better style wise as well.

Hate to tell you guys but.. British weren't the strongest army. The Prussians were.