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Rochey wrote:

But again - if the attack was outside the operational characteristics of the torpedo, then why would they mount the attack in the first place? It's as if they decided to try stopping it with harsh language, knowing that that cannot work, but then the force let Luke's harsh language win the day.

It can't have been an impossible shot. It wouldn't make any sense.

What other options did they have? It was either die trying to blow it up, or die sitting around waiting to be blown up. They knew the flaw was there and that was the only chance they had, hence the attack.

Or option three, evacuate. I'd have evacuated everyone and everything I could. Let's presume that they didn't have any transports for some reason; you could still at least have evacuated those X Wings and saved them and the pilots. The Falcon alone could have taken the top brass leadership out as well, for that matter.

IIRC, they weren't able to evacuate as, according to the novel, there were other Imperial ships surrounding the planet and preventing escape. And by the time they got ships off the ground and past the planet's gravity well they'd be swamped in TIE fighters.

Rochey wrote:IIRC, they weren't able to evacuate as, according to the novel, there were other Imperial ships surrounding the planet and preventing escape. And by the time they got ships off the ground and past the planet's gravity well they'd be swamped in TIE fighters.

Oh, nonsense. If these swarms of Tie fighters were around the X and Y wings would never have got to the Death Star. They lifted off and flew away perfectly unmolested. Likewise, Han DID leave successfully in the Millennium Falcon.

The big problem wouldn't have been evacuating the fighters and high-ranking personnel, but the heavy equipment and support staff were a different matter. Unlike at Hoth, they had nothing big enough to get them out, and without them the fighters would soon be useless.

As for the bigwigs, they probably were evacuated - the novelisation mentions various Senators present on Yavin for the briefing, who were nowhere to be seen during the battle. They probably got out on whatever ships were avilable, while Dodonna stayed to conduct the battle.

Captain Seafort wrote:The big problem wouldn't have been evacuating the fighters and high-ranking personnel, but the heavy equipment and support staff were a different matter. Unlike at Hoth, they had nothing big enough to get them out, and without them the fighters would soon be useless.

And so that stuff should have been abandoned. The fighters could go to another system and be hidden until the rebels could come for them easily enough.

As for the bigwigs, they probably were evacuated - the novelisation mentions various Senators present on Yavin for the briefing, who were nowhere to be seen during the battle. They probably got out on whatever ships were avilable, while Dodonna stayed to conduct the battle.

The Falcon could have evacuated dozens more; maybe even a hundred plus for a short trip. And the X Wings could also have escaped since they are interstellar capable. All stayed to fight, and that only makes sense if there was a chance that the fight could be won.

How it should have ended.

Bit snarky, but it does raise a couple of good points.

I never saw sending a couple of torpedoes down the exhaust as impossible. Didn't one pilot hit the right spot, but hit some surface shielding?

kostmayer wrote:How it should have ended.

Bit snarky, but it does raise a couple of good points.

I never saw sending a couple of torpedoes down the exhaust as impossible. Didn't one pilot hit the right spot, but hit some surface shielding?

The first Death Star's recharge time wasn't good enough to do that. BUT that being said I bet it could destroy Yavin and the resulting shockwave would destroy the rebel base anyway.

Most fan sights I've seen have that near 90 degree turn being canon and fact for torpedoes to perform.

It must be fact, because we saw it.

I agree with GK, though - nobody in the Alliance command staff knew that Luke was such a powerful wielder of the Force - hell, he didn't even know - and they sent other pilots to make the attempt first. They must have considered it AMAZINGLY difficult, but with some chance of success.

Aye. Though when you put into account there were 5,000 TIE Fighters defending the Death Star it does seem very unlikely. I guess the biggest design flaw for the Death Star was putting Tarkin in command.

GrahamKennedy wrote:And so that stuff should have been abandoned. The fighters could go to another system and be hidden until the rebels could come for them easily enough.

The loss of around half their heavy equipment at Hoth temporarilly crippled the Alliance - they were forced to leave the Galaxy for a time. Even a year later, the combined forces of "every Rebel in the galaxy" were massively outgunned by a single reinforced sector fleet.

Running from Yavin would have cost them all the Alliance's heavy equipment and comunications gear. Plus the Death Star would still have been extant, and was capable of a one-shot kill against any planet in the galaxy - a battle such as Hoth would never have been fought. They'd have been constantly running, unable to risk setting up in one place without the fear of losing everything again.

The Falcon could have evacuated dozens more; maybe even a hundred plus for a short trip. And the X Wings could also have escaped since they are interstellar capable. All stayed to fight, and that only makes sense if there was a chance that the fight could be won.

Better to have a crack at the thing, even if there was only an infinestimally slim chance of victory, than run and be constantly running. In any event, it seems that everyone underestimated the difficulty of the Trench Run.

IIRC, the Falcon wasn't really to be considered an option, unless they were going to hijack it from Solo. At the time the attack was launched, he was on his way out of Dodge.

Captain Seafort wrote:The loss of around half their heavy equipment at Hoth temporarilly crippled the Alliance - they were forced to leave the Galaxy for a time. Even a year later, the combined forces of "every Rebel in the galaxy" were massively outgunned by a single reinforced sector fleet.

Running from Yavin would have cost them all the Alliance's heavy equipment and comunications gear. Plus the Death Star would still have been extant, and was capable of a one-shot kill against any planet in the galaxy - a battle such as Hoth would never have been fought. They'd have been constantly running, unable to risk setting up in one place without the fear of losing everything again.

And staying and fighting when there is no chance of winning would still cost them all of that exact same equipment, plus they also lose all the X and Y wings, all the pilots of those ships, and all the people Han could have evacuated. How is that a better option to take? Are you seriously suggesting that the rebels, faced with 90% losses, therefore decided the best course was to go for 100% losses instead?

Better to have a crack at the thing, even if there was only an infinestimally slim chance of victory

Stop right there. With that statement you have switched to my point of view, but that's NOT the argument that was being made about the trench run.

What I and one or two others have suggested is that the trench run was very difficult, with a slight chance of victory. In those circumstances, what they did in the way of staying to fight was reasonable. I have no problem with that.

What was suggested is that the trench run was not difficult, but impossible. It was suggested that the attack on the exhaust port was a physical impossibility because the proton torpedoes simply cannot pull the required maneuver. It was suggested that only Luke, as a force user extrordinaire, was able to succeed by using the force to shove the torpedoes into the port.

The rebels did not know Luke was a powerful force user. Given this, if that above scenario is true, then the rebels were launching an attack that had no chance of success whatsoever. None. Doing the trench run does not have an infinitesimally slim chance of success, it has no chance whatsoever. They may as well have tried to stop the death star by throwing snowballs at it.

Now I would argue that the rebels are not suicidal idiots (I suppose that's a possibility, but I tend to discount it). Given that we know with absolute certainty that they could have saved at least something of their forces by evacuating, I would argue that they would not have launched the attack unless there was indeed a chance, however slim, that they could succeed. Hence I would argue that it must be true that the attack on the exhaust port was within the realm of the possible. I freely admit that it may have been exceedingly difficult. But not impossible.

GrahamKennedy wrote:The Falcon could have evacuated dozens more; maybe even a hundred plus for a short trip. And the X Wings could also have escaped since they are interstellar capable. All stayed to fight, and that only makes sense if there was a chance that the fight could be won.

Even if they could have convinced Solo to do that the Falcan has an upper limit of 50 people accoriding to the EU. (First NJO book I think)

GrahamKennedy wrote:*snip*

Ahh, I think we're talking at cross purposes here. I'm not saying that the Rebels launched an attack they thought would fail - I'm saying they launched one they thought had a very slim chance of success but was possible. They were wrong - they'd underestimated the difficulty of the attack, and while it might have been possible if the only problem was the trench and the target, only a powerful Force-sensitive could pull it off when the effects of the surface defences and the jamming were taken into account as well.

As for what Luke did, I'm not saying that he used to the Force to steer the torpedoes in, only that he used it to fire at precisely the right moment, and possibly to give the torpedoes a slight nudge to ensure that they were on exactly the right course.

Captain Seafort wrote:...As for what Luke did, I'm not saying that he used to the Force to steer the torpedoes in, only that he used it to fire at precisely the right moment, and possibly to give the torpedoes a slight nudge to ensure that they were on exactly the right course.

Sort of like what I do when I'm playing billiards. Doesn't always seem to work...