How Would You Have Dealt With The Gaza Blockade-Runners?

[Monroe]

A plus is people wouldn't feel the only way out is jihad. Israel could win some hearts and minds, or at least make people not want to blow themselves up to kill as many Israelis as possible.

[Mikey]

I'm still intrigued by the fact that people are talking about how wrong the blockade is, and how it should be dropped in favor of allowing anything and everything to land. That's all well and good and I can understand the sentiment, but those people seem to never have mentioned the idea that no blockade would be needed if elements of the Palestinians weren't taking the materials that are contraband under the blockade and using them to murder women, children, and other innocent civilians. Instead, people seem keen to let that go but want Israel to remove the blockade so that... their innocent civilians can be more easily murdered.

[sunnyside]

The impression that I get is that his intention was "it is a crime because it was Israel that did it."

Monroe - why are you dodging the questions about the initial transgression: the ships going into the blockade in the first place?

I think the concept of "initial transgression" in regards to anything over there is misguided. I see it a lot in dicsussions like there, and the bottom line is that in order to capture the "they started it" advantage everyone claims the other side committed the initial transgression, and they were responding.

Oh I don't. But like I said before Israel should have used lesser force. Like been there on the shore when the boats arrived and passed out the goods themselves.

While they wouldn't have let the cement through, people can already do that, though they have to land at the Israeli port.

In terms of violence, once you have the ships on ground being swarmed by people under the eyes of armed militants you've got a rather more problematic situation than you started with.


If anyone care, the UN issues with the blockade aren't suggesting Israel let anything in. For example when Egypt "opened the border" they still had customs and were quite restrictive. The issue is that Israel is denying things with little or absolutely no military significance in order to collectively punish the population.

While I'm sure plenty will still not like Israel even if they let up on the collective punishment it would at least get the UN off their backs.

Though I tink the essence of the matter is that they don't especially care so long as nobody is really turning the screws on them with sanctions. But push Obama too far and I think he'd eventually let some pain through.

[Deepcrush]

A plus is people wouldn't feel the only way out is jihad. Israel could win some hearts and minds, or at least make people not want to blow themselves up to kill as many Israelis as possible.

Wrong, on all counts.

[Monroe]

A plus is people wouldn't feel the only way out is jihad. Israel could win some hearts and minds, or at least make people not want to blow themselves up to kill as many Israelis as possible.

Wrong, on all counts.

Yes, try that, your whole "Ultimate Fear" crap. Run it into the people and destroy everything so that they have nothing to lose. Smash your whole economy into the ground and then watch your nation fall apart under you. Or after you. Either way, you have only suppressed the rebel's. Once you're gone or once they watch your plans eat away at your own ability to stop them they'll come right back. In the end, you failed. Why? Because you thought for some stupid reason that people will listen to you because you say so.

[Deepcrush]

And your point would be what... Looking to bring up another debate in which you got to look like a fool?

[Monroe]

And your point would be what... Looking to bring up another debate in which you got to look like a fool?

Actually you got your ass handed to you pretty hard in that other debate but no that wasn't my intent. You're proposing what, in the last thread we both said wouldn't work. Like the only thing we agreed on in that debate was this. We said that oppressing a population to the extent that Israel is would only lead to rebellions and strife. Now, we didn't use Israel by name- at least to my recollection. But you used the Civil Rights movement (one of the historians you linked was a civil rights historian) which was a lot less oppressed than Israel. where we had a disagreement in the other thread is I said if you go all the way like Stalin you could have a stable government safe from internal threats. You said the harsher things are the more likely a rebellion would happen. That's fine, we have a disagreement there- I'm confident I won, you are confident you won, whatever right? Let's leave the previous disagreement alone, the point is the area where we agreed on the other thread you're now disagreeing here.

Oppressing a population, your entire argument in the previous thread, would lead to more strife. Now you're on the opposite side of the argument. I find that curious and a little hypocritical. You think blowing up most homes in Gaza and refusing them aid to rebuild it not oppressing the population? That's the reason I'm against the blockade. Its only going to encourage strife and hatred to last longer.

[Deepcrush]

Wow, you're such a sad waste of sperm. No one here is talking about "Oppressing the population of Israel". Which would be required for you statement to mean anything at all. That on top of your denial of reality. Just go kill yourself, its the last useful thing you can do in this world...

[Monroe]

Deep you're so easy to predict. So you're saying denying someone the ability to build a house is not oppressing? You saying the Israelis are not oppressing the people of Gaza? Do the Gaza residents have equal rights? Hah, pathetic.

[Mikey]

You know, I agree that the GP of the Palestinian territories is oppressed to a point by Israel. However, I have yet to see anyone on the other side of the argument agree to the fact that such oppression is Israel's natural reaction to the Palestinians' staunch refusal to remove Hamas - at least the militant aspect - do anything about Hezbollah, or reinstate the PLO or other such leadership that was eventually willing to talk peace; in essence, the Palestinian people's refusal to stop the terrorism committed against Israel. If they would, I'm sure Israel would feel much less of a need to oppress anyone.

I know Egypt has withdrawn from the blockade, because they're on the fence between sucking up to the West and maintaining face with the other Arab nations. However, it bears repeating that Egypt was a joint founder of the blockade. If the Gaza Strip was such an innocent in the matter, why would Egypt have instituted a blockade against them?

[Monroe]

You know, I agree that the GP of the Palestinian territories is oppressed to a point by Israel. However, I have yet to see anyone on the other side of the argument agree to the fact that such oppression is Israel's natural reaction to the Palestinians' staunch refusal to remove Hamas - at least the militant aspect - do anything about Hezbollah, or reinstate the PLO or other such leadership that was eventually willing to talk peace; in essence, the Palestinian people's refusal to stop the terrorism committed against Israel. If they would, I'm sure Israel would feel much less of a need to oppress anyone.

I know Egypt has withdrawn from the blockade, because they're on the fence between sucking up to the West and maintaining face with the other Arab nations. However, it bears repeating that Egypt was a joint founder of the blockade. If the Gaza Strip was such an innocent in the matter, why would Egypt have instituted a blockade against them?

I'll agree its a natural response. But sometimes a knee jerk response isn't always the best. At least in the long term.

I think this argument has really kind of ran its course. On the footage issue we can't really go any further because well Israel might be innocent but no way of knowing without footage. And on the rather or not Gaza should be blockaded we'll have to agree to disagree. I think a blockade just makes things worse in the long term. It makes children grow up hating Israel.

[Captain Seafort]

Monroe and Deep's bullshit split to here.

[Deepcrush]

So does this mean we get to ask the same questions over again so everything can get dodged again?

[Tyyr]

What are you talking about Tyyr? The Israelis have admitted to having it. They've edited and released parts of it already. We KNOW they have it.

We have A tape. That's it. You were suggesting that the accusations that the Israeli's shot first unprovoked and were executing non-resisting passengers can be proven by releasing the tape. The problem is that the only proof any of the people making those claims will ever accept is a video of Israeli commandos executing protesters. That video does not exist, ever or at least now. Whatever Israel will ever release will never satisfy their detractors who if it doesn't show what they want to believe happened will just claim it's doctored. The video will never, ever satisfy those claiming the Israelis just massacred innocents.

[Tsukiyumi]

What are you talking about Tyyr? The Israelis have admitted to having it. They've edited and released parts of it already. We KNOW they have it.

We have A tape. That's it. You were suggesting that the accusations that the Israeli's shot first unprovoked and were executing non-resisting passengers can be proven by releasing the tape. The problem is that the only proof any of the people making those claims will ever accept is a video of Israeli commandos executing protesters. That video does not exist, ever or at least now. Whatever Israel will ever release will never satisfy their detractors who if it doesn't show what they want to believe happened will just claim it's doctored. The video will never, ever satisfy those claiming the Israelis just massacred innocents.

People see what they want to see. End of story.