The official Twilight Bashing thread...

[Sionnach Glic]

The problem, though, is that the sparklepires are, as I understand it, about as hard to bring down as a T-1000 when it comes to mechanical damage. Crushing physical trauma simply stuns them for a while, and even being ripped up by a .50 would just put them down for a while until they reform.

I imagine that a .50 cal to the head would simply snap their neck, even if it didn't penetrate. I doubt they're getting up after that.

Apperantly the only way to put them down for good is for them to completely burn. And while they seem to be fairly flammable they aren't quite the tinderboxes of Anne Rice where a Zippo lighter would be a fair weapon.

.50 loaded with incendiary rounds. Problem solved. 8)

Steel needle pushing vs. bullet impact is quite a bit different. Like a diamond. Shining the way it does would imply some crystalline properties and anything that flexible is going to be thin and nothing that thin and crystalline is going to stop a bullet. Now, if we'd like to start saying "magic" that's fine. However if we're not going to blame it on magic I'm giving you an explanation that accounts for the apparent durability of a vampire in hand to hand and why they sparkle. Sadly it doesn't do jack for being shot in the face with a weapon intended to be used against light armored vehicles.

I actually checked out Youtube for a fight scene from the movie, and found this. To be perfectly honest, it's not that impressive. The evil wankpire's throat was torn out by another's teeth, and his neck then snapped by another. Nothing there that would really indicate to me that they'd be all that resistant to being peppered with machine gun rounds.

Also, whoever plays the girl in that film seriously cannot act.

[Tsukiyumi]

Also, whoever plays the girl in that film seriously cannot act.

She's damn attractive, though, and that's what really matters in modern cinema.

[Captain Seafort]

No, it involves the vampire's teeth itself. Not exactly kitchen implements. Or said vamps ripping their opponents apart.

Alright, how strong are these vampires? Can they punch holes through foot-thick brick walls? Can they eat armour plate? If not, then any decent sniper rifle would at least do serous damage (i.e. remove limbs, heads, etc).

I imagine that a .50 cal to the head would simply snap their neck, even if it didn't penetrate. I doubt they're getting up after that.

I can't even see their heads slowing a fifty cal slowing down.

.50 loaded with incendiary rounds. Problem solved. 8)

Or give the UV squad napalm UGL rounds. One HE to drop them, a napalm one to burn them. It can't be any trickier than developing a charcoal round that can go through bone.

[Tyyr]

I watched it with my wife. I was just hesitant to bring it into the discussion because I don't know how true it is to the book. I suspect the girl who was in it was supposed to act that way. According to the way my wife described her from the books she was supposed to be plain, uninteresting... blah.

Nothing I saw in the movie gives me the impression they were tough enough to take a large caliber round to the face. Pretty much bog standard vamps but with shiney.

[Sionnach Glic]

Meh. There were better looking in the film, judging by what clips I stumbled across.

No, it involves the vampire's teeth itself. Not exactly kitchen implements. Or said vamps ripping their opponents apart.

Tooth: A vaguely cylindrical object made of enamel and dentine, measuring a few centimetres at most, occasionaly pointed, and is pushed into the target with whatever force can be generated by the jaw muscles.

.50 calibre round: A cylindrical object made of metal, measuring about 5cm, pointed at the tip, and is pushed into the target with sufficient speed to break the sound barrier and blow limbs off a person.

Something tells me that the .50 round is a tad more dangerous.

[sunnyside]

Wow, these sound like wank-tastic vampires...

Oh are they ever. But that's the fun of it. After a while you just get tired of smacking yet another Goblin or whatever the mooks are.

I've read all four books.

Sweet. Could you fill me in on what went down in the little war that was supposed to go on in the, uh, third book I think with all the vampires and shapeshifters. Or was that pretty well glossed over.

Also, as I understand it, there is relatively little in regards to what they can survive. Relevant facts from the wiki I know of:

After having her little chestburster, being changed to a vampire fixed Bella right up

Getting slammed into all manner of things is usually how combat is depicted, and results in the stun effect (at least that's how it seemed from the youtube clip of the fight scene from the first movie)

Vampire venom seems to prevent proper healing (some vapire that fought a lot had crescent shaped scars all over).

They are basically flammable (again per clip from first movie)

Bady parts keep moving once seperate (and can presumably be stuck back into place and re-integrated)

And also that, aside from that, there isn't much indication of what they can and cannot handle. I.e. nobody ever used a gun on one of them or anything like that.

I'm thinking the dismembering isn't so much a litteral requirement as it is a practical one. That is they will tend to run into a pond or something if you haven't temporarily disabled them first, and pretty much the only convenient way to slow them down for an extended period of time is to dismember them.

Oh, and there is no 'closed mind' with Edward unless you're Bella. She's the only one he can't read.

Well yes, but I don't think it's supposed to be like she's a psycher or something. It's just a way of thinking that could, presumably, be taught.

Alice's precog allows her to beat the Stock market... well, every single damned time. As well as predict things out months in advance. She saw her future husband Jasper walk into a diner and knew right where to go. "What kept you?" Actually kinda romantic, there.

Perhaps, but a lot of bad stuff happens as well in the series. Hence the feeling that it's "spotty" as such abilities are in most settings, conveniently showing one thing but not another.

Their skin shines like diamond, but is insanely tough. Solid-steel needle shoved with their own strength won't penetrate. Fast, too. Outrun moving vehicles fast and crisscross the country fast.

I'm thinking of considering them to be somewhat similer, durability wise, to a block of porus aluminum that regenerates (but, again, is also flammable).

So, as a way to visualise it, the effect of most firearms would be similarish (though more icky) to the way they effected the T-1000.

So a regular .50 to the head would probably make some bystanders lose their lunch, but otherwise would only buy you ten seconds or so while they reform their head.

In regards to some of the other comments, my impression is that the burning is critical to stopping them. If you tore one up with one of those machines that bore through rock you'd have a yucky mess in one of the waste carts, and than a while later the reformed sparklepire would climb out of the thing.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

YThey've got superstrength. That includes their teeth. They wrestle wild animals for fun before eating them. They punch through stone like nothing and crumble it. Edward stops an out-of-control van one-handed and doesn't even budge. And again, their insane speed.

Bella's ability can't be taught. It's an innate ability of hers. She's a 'Shield', to use their terminology, but it only works on mental stuff. Alice can still predict her and Jasper can still affect her mood. When she's turned, she can extend the effects.

If you dismember but don't ignite, they'll reassemble. And they handled the flames just fine whole in the novel when they killed James.

As for the war between the CUllens/Shapeshifters and Victoria's newborn army, not much was shown. Edward from a distance kept the wolves and Cullens in mental contact before Victoria and RIley showed up. There wasn't much detail to the fight, but it was from Bella's perspective. Basically way too fast for her to follow.

[sunnyside]

As a side note it's interesting in other forums where you get people who are pissed at how potent sparklepires are, but who like Dragon Ball Z.

Bella's ability can't be taught. It's an innate ability of hers. She's a 'Shield', to use their terminology, but it only works on mental stuff. Alice can still predict her and Jasper can still affect her mood. When she's turned, she can extend the effects.

Note on the predice and mood stuff. Though I don't think they went into the origin or cause of her ability or whatnot. I thought the "private mind" thing was a quote from one of the books (why she's a shield).

In any case the author is flexible enough with cannon ("Vampires can't have children") that I think I could swing that.

And they handled the flames just fine whole in the novel when they killed James.

They were standing around in the flames? I thought they just stayed out of them. That is they could jump through flames, have an ember land on their skin, or play with candles without disaster, but that they couldn't just stand around in a bonfire.

As for the war between the CUllens/Shapeshifters and Victoria's newborn army, not much was shown. Edward from a distance kept the wolves and Cullens in mental contact before Victoria and RIley showed up. There wasn't much detail to the fight, but it was from Bella's perspective. Basically way too fast for her to follow.

Ah. And is it correct that, other than that bit in the first book, pretty well all the rest of the combat amounted to just slamming each other into things.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

They've got abilities that can carry over from their time as humans. Some can cause mild shocks. Jane looks at you and OMG THE PAIN![/Doctor_Smith]

[Captain Seafort]

They've got superstrength. That includes their teeth.

And? Can they eat armour plate? If not then they get beaten by the fifty cal.

They wrestle wild animals for fun before eating them.

Which is impressive, but not "shrug off a bullet" impressive.

They punch through stone like nothing and crumble it.

Examples please, with details - are we talking about multiple hits or punching through it the same way you or I would go through paper?

Edward stops an out-of-control van one-handed and doesn't even budge.

Some idiot evidently hasn't heard of conservation of momentum.

How did he do it? Simply holding up a hand and stopping it, or charging it?

Either way, being hit by a car (or van) is survivable, albeit unlikely. A bullet through the forehead isn't. You can't simply compare energies, but pressure and impulse.

And again, their insane speed.

Which doesn't help if the vampire's head is scattered around the room.

[sunnyside]

Which doesn't help if the vampire's head is scattered around the room.

I'm actually surprised this came up at all much less from multiple people. I don't think the idea of killing undead by shooting them in the head (or otherwise through head trauma), came onto the scene until Romero in the 60s. And that was Zombies.

I think in the old lore it was a spirit using a dead body as a vessel. So destroying the head just gave you a torso to deal with. Or the head might reform if they turned into mist or whatever and than turned back. Hence the extrememly elaborate and destructive methods used by villagers in real life to properly destroy suspected "vampires".

And earlier modern vampires and werewolves could handle regular firearms just fine.

Actually Striker, do they ever go into how resiliant a shapeshifter is or what could kill one. I'm getting the impression that really never came up.

[Tyyr]

It still comes down to whether you want to call it a disease/another species, or magic.

[Captain Seafort]

I'm actually surprised this came up at all much less from multiple people. I don't think the idea of killing undead by shooting them in the head (or otherwise through head trauma), came onto the scene until Romero in the 60s. And that was Zombies.

Removing the head has been a tried and tested method of dealing with vampires since at least Dracula, and probably before then. Removing it by scatting it in a million directions simultaneously, rather than by Bowie knife, is simply a variation.

[Sionnach Glic]

Some idiot evidently hasn't heard of conservation of momentum.

How did he do it? Simply holding up a hand and stopping it, or charging it?

Either way, being hit by a car (or van) is survivable, albeit unlikely. A bullet through the forehead isn't. You can't simply compare energies, but pressure and impulse.

Going by the movie, he actually braced himself against the ground (that is to say, he put one hand on the ground and another reaching out to stop the van) to stop it. The scenario also happened in a car park, while the van was already braking. So it's not as though he stopped a van dead when it hit him head on at 50MPH.

[sunnyside]

Removing the head has been a tried and tested method of dealing with vampires since at least Dracula, and probably before then. Removing it by scatting it in a million directions simultaneously, rather than by Bowie knife, is simply a variation.

It's been a while, but I thought in Dracula the chest wounds were the key thing. Though they'd throw in some head chopping and garlic stuffing as well.

In any case, despite her wild departures from all existing folklore in some respects, being able to handle not having a head and/or recovering from mechanical head trauma is certainly not a new trick for the more potent varieties of undead (or werewolves).

It still comes down to whether you want to call it a disease/another species, or magic.

I think being able to see the future kinda narrows that down a bit yes?