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Mikey wrote:#1 - didn't mean to upset you. I know what "HMS" stand for, but I had always assumed that the usage was more as part of the name, in which case the article would be appropriate.

No problem, it's just one of those personal gripes. if it were merely the ship (e.g. "the Leopard"), then the definate article is correct, but if the prefix is used then the indefinate article is correct. It's complicated by the fact that for the prefix "USS", use of the definate article is correct.

#2 - I do see what you're saying - assuming that those customs and usages were actually in custom and usage with other nations, rather than falsely assumed or rhetorically devised merely to justify those orders. And even if they were common usages, is a fusillade the proper response to a denial?

A fusillade was certainly not the proper response - a shot across the bows, or perhaps at the Chesapeake's ensign, certainly, but emptying a few broadsides into her was out of order. Maybe the Captain got out on the wrong side of bed that morning?

He must have been hell-for-leather in a true combat situation, huh?

Given the drubbing it'd given all comers for decades, the RN had earned a bit of hubris.

True enough.

Incidentally, I've always found it somewhat amusing that the US Navy has made a big deal about Lawrence's "don't give up the ship", ignoring the fact that Chesapeake surrendered less than five minutes later.

The US didn't ignore it, the skipper was put on trial for cowardice.

The British consul had already tried that approach, with a distinct lack of sucess, so a slightly more coercive approach was needed.

Records show otherwise. Your ship refused to set port and meet with an american court. Besides, if they failed once, why not try again. They were a tax ship out at sea. Those boys weren't going anywhere.

#2 - I do see what you're saying - assuming that those customs and usages were actually in custom and usage with other nations, rather than falsely assumed or rhetorically devised merely to justify those orders. And even if they were common usages, is a fusillade the proper response to a denial?

For this you have to understand England's practices with treaties and by extention, American practice. Throughout history, England has been one of the few nations to stick to its treaty bounds whatever they may be. The problem lies in that they think that everyone else will to. This was a huge boil point for the Revolution. England the Seven Years War was over but the fighting over here never ended. French and Indian raids continued and England wouldn't allow the Colonies to defend themselves, not would they send aid. Instead the began taxing the Colonies to pay off England's war costs. We all know how this ended.

The US was at the time a trade nation built on the open sea lanes and claimed only waters that were within cannon shot. This allowed ships to remain close to shore for reasons I have stated before but also meant that the US saw anything past this point to be High Seas and there for free to use by anynation that so wished. Since the US capt had no orders to allow any searches he was bound to refuse. This is where the US and UK are very much alike. We have to have orders for what we do. Treaties are protected and enforced. Law and Order are of massive matter to us both. The two ships were under different orders and neither served the other.

Deepcrush wrote:

The British consul had already tried that approach, with a distinct lack of sucess, so a slightly more coercive approach was needed.

Records show otherwise. Your ship refused to set port and meet with an american court. Besides, if they failed once, why not try again. They were a tax ship out at sea. Those boys weren't going anywhere.

Again, from Leopard's orders:

Whereas, many seamen, subjects of His Britannic Majesty, and serving in His Majesty's ships and vessels . . . while at anchor in the Chesapeake, deserted and entered on board the United States' frigate the Chesapeake, and openly paraded the streets of Norfolk, in sight of their officers, under the American flag, protected by the magistrates of the town, and the recruiting officer belonging to the above-mentioned American frigate; which magistrates and naval officer refused giving them up, although demanded by His Britannic Majesty's consul, as well as the captains of the ships from which the said men had deserted

We'd tried going the official route, got nowhere, and so tried the unoffical route.

Here is a good question.

Why were the Sardukar so much better then the average troop?

The book says that a Sardukar Captain is worth ten standard troops. Yet, the Fremen were able to kill 3 Sardukar for every one of their own lost.

Does this reflect the skill of the Fremen or the poor skills of the average troop in Dune?

Well, the Fremen did have those kick-ass sonic weapons, sandworms, and the element of surprise...

But what advantages did the Sardaukar have over normal troops? Better armour? Better training? Those wouldn't really make them uber enough that they can kill ten for every one dead, unless the normal troops are sucktacular.

Rochey wrote:But what advantages did the Sardaukar have over normal troops? Better armour? Better training? Those wouldn't really make them uber enough that they can kill ten for every one dead, unless the normal troops are sucktacular.

The normal Harkonnen troops seemed to get their asses handed to them pretty badly by the Fremen, so I guess the average soldier in the Dune universe must suck pretty bad.

As for ten to one, that's what you would expect from modern Royal Marines, or Delta Force, so I can see that being plausible. Or, it could be propaganda.

Tsukiyumi wrote:Well, the Fremen did have those kick-ass sonic weapons, sandworms, and the element of surprise...

Sonic weapons? The fremen used knives and rifles. Those sonics things were out of the 1984 movie that was crap. Watch the miniseries from Sci-Fi for a better picture.

As for ten to one, that's what you would expect from modern Royal Marines, or Delta Force, so I can see that being plausible. Or, it could be propaganda.

Remember that the Sardukar Captains were the best of the best for them. The average Sardukar was rated at 5 to 1. That is still a nasty beast. As to the Propaganda I'm not so sure. One legion of the Sardukar was enough to cause whole planets to bow down. Over ten thousand years, someone must have treid to fight the Emperors. This propaganda may in fact be a reputation.

Deepcrush wrote:Sonic weapons? The fremen used knives and rifles. Those sonics things were out of the 1984 movie that was crap. Watch the miniseries from Sci-Fi for a better picture.

I read the book (quite a while ago, though), and I could swear I remember the sonic weapons from the novel, along with lasguns and atomics, and all the other fun stuff from the Dune universe. Maybe my brain mixed the two up somehow. I need to re-read the series, I suppose. Too many years of blocking things in my real life out must've muddled other things.

Those sonic weapons were an invention of the deLaurentis film. As far as the Sardaukar, they were that much better than typical House troops because of their incredibly harsh training regimen on the planet of *something* Secundus, which had been rendered all but inhabitable by atomic war.

Damn. I need to read the series again.

I read the book (quite a while ago, though), and I could swear I remember the sonic weapons from the novel, along with lasguns and atomics, and all the other fun stuff from the Dune universe. Maybe my brain mixed the two up somehow. I need to re-read the series, I suppose. Too many years of blocking things in my real life out must've muddled other things.

You are right about the Lasguns and atomics though. It's a great series, if you haven't read it in a while then you should go back and read them over again.

Those sonic weapons were an invention of the deLaurentis film. As far as the Sardaukar, they were that much better than typical House troops because of their incredibly harsh training regimen on the planet of *something* Secundus, which had been rendered all but inhabitable by atomic war.

Selusa...

You're exactly right, Deep. It was Salusa Secundus.