US vs Arizona

[Captain Seafort]

No idea. Depends on the number of drivers and the number of cops who would need the readers. First number is easy to get. Second, much harder.

Both are pretty easy - count number of licensed drivers, count number of cop cars. I'd say that the latter would be easier than the former, given that the cops are fixed, while the receivers would need to include transient drivers from other states.

And that isn't the only possible method of catching speeders with less false tickets. That was just one example. Another would be GPS chips in liscence plates. Another would be to stop them from competing on who will get the most tickets per month (sort of an artificial quota).

Who said anything about catching speeders? We're talking about ID'ing drivers without having to stop the vehicle. That's got very little to do with the mechanics of catching someone speeding. My personal preference would be cameras linked to numberplate recognition software, as we've got here. When someone gets caught speeding, the demand for the fine and points is automatically produced and sent to the registered address of the vehicle's owner.

[Tyyr]

First off, it's technically unfeasible. I can't stress that enough. Second, it's so easy to spoof a system like that it's not even funny and...

Third, money matters. Someone will have to pay for it, you cannot escape that. You don't just write a law demanding something and it magically happens. It has to be paid for which means it has to be added into the state's already over worked budgets. First off you're talking about reissuing every driver's license in every state, all of them. That will not be done cheaply. I'd suggest it costing at least $10 per license, probably more. Then you've got to equip every cop with a reader, which are hundreds of thousands of readers likely costing hundreds of dollars each, if not thousands. Then you have to integrate the reader into the cop's computer equipment, more money. Then to make it really useful you've got to get everyone's driver's license data bases talking to one another in real time. Your little "Put RFID tags in everyone's driver's license" idea would cost literally tens of billions of dollars to do and all to really do nothing except tell the cop the person's name before he gets to their window and asks for ID and proof of insurance.

[stitch626]

Adrressed above. Who's reporting it? The guy trying to feed his family, who all of a sudden will never work again because of what he did? Or the guy who wants to bear the brunt of a slander suit because the employer can dump those illegals as easy as he got them, with no paper trail?

Unless you try the blackmail route, he won't know he's been reported till they show up to investigate. And there are plenty of agencies to report to, INS being one of them.

And how the heck will he never work again. No one has to know he was the one who reported. Ever heard of anonymous.

You still haven't answered the point. You're using an example of poor execution in one instance as an argument against the law. In reality, it's just an argument against poor execution.

I'll say it again, this law encourages the poor execution. Hence the execution makes this law a problem.

Go ahead. Such as... ? Again, you are arguing about execution in a discussion of the laws themselves. So, which is it - abolish law, or have the occasional happenstance of individuals performing poorly?

Already have, read above. And those aren't the only two choices. There's also "MAKE IMPROVEMENTS".

The plane and boat examples are accidents.

They are still illegal and still can disappear without paying.

Illegal immigration is not, and is something that can be combatted by rule of law.

And we've been doing such a good job at that.
For each one we arrest/deport, two more come in (not exact figures).

Who said anything about catching speeders? We're talking about ID'ing drivers without having to stop the vehicle. That's got very little to do with the mechanics of catching someone speeding. My personal preference would be cameras linked to numberplate recognition software, as we've got here. When someone gets caught speeding, the demand for the fine and points is automatically produced and sent to the registered address of the vehicle's owner.

Wrong. This little bit was about speeders in response to Mikey's slightly off topic comment about me being against cops giving speeding tickets.

Also:

My personal preference would be cameras linked to numberplate recognition software, as we've got here.

And another solution I didn't think of. One which also wouldn't be done cause it would cost too much in the opinion of the highway department.



And Tyyr, yes money matters. But:

I'd suggest it costing at least $10 per license, probably more.

You'd be wrong. The ones my dad's company uses cost about 50 cents per tag.

But any improvement is going to cost money, it doesn't mean the cheaper old ways are better. And it doesn't have to be all at once. Divide those tens of billions by the number of taxpayers in the US, then again by the several years needed to implement, and then you can have a viable option. Expecting all of the money to appear and be used at once is foolish. Of course, this would require the government to actually spend the money in that area, instead of changing their minds halfway through.

[Tsukiyumi]

Adrressed above. Who's reporting it? The guy trying to feed his family, who all of a sudden will never work again because of what he did? Or the guy who wants to bear the brunt of a slander suit because the employer can dump those illegals as easy as he got them, with no paper trail?

Unless you try the blackmail route, he won't know he's been reported till they show up to investigate. And there are plenty of agencies to report to, INS being one of them.

And how the heck will he never work again. No one has to know he was the one who reported. Ever heard of anonymous.

And if your job uses a lot of illegals, the company is now out of business. Either way, you're out of work, which is simply not an option for people who have no one else to rely on.

[Captain Seafort]

I'll say it again, this law encourages the poor execution. Hence the execution makes this law a problem.

Wrong, if you've got a problem with corrupt/stupid plods, fix the plods. Do not take said corruption/stupidity for granted and work around it.

Already have, read above. And those aren't the only two choices. There's also "MAKE IMPROVEMENTS".

Stop this vague "improvements" handwaving. If you think there are viable alternatives, suggest them.

They are still illegal and still can disappear without paying.

They are, however, unintentionally present illegally rather than deliberately.

And we've been doing such a good job at that.
For each one we arrest/deport, two more come in (not exact figures).

So why are you so against a measure to fix that problem?

Wrong. This little bit was about speeders in response to Mikey's slightly off topic comment about me being against cops giving speeding tickets.

Fair enough - I thought that part of the argument was based on simply scanning people's licences as they drove past to check whether they were allowed in teh country.

And another solution I didn't think of. One which also wouldn't be done cause it would cost too much in the opinion of the highway department.

The DoT and the Home Office disagree. Not surprisingly, given how much revenue the things pull in.

[Tyyr]

And Tyyr, yes money matters. But:

I'd suggest it costing at least $10 per license, probably more.

You'd be wrong. The ones my dad's company uses cost about 50 cents per tag.

And you're pretty damn clueless about something like this. First off, the tags your father's company uses aren't going to work in this application so their cost is largely irrelevant. Not that it matters much anyways because the tag is the least of your problems. You've also got the cost of printing those licenses and the cost in man power of re-issuing every single license. However before you even get to that point you've got to go through the process of designing and testing the new licenses to get to a design that everyone is happy with and will hold up to the kind of duty people put their licesnses though. The process of designing and testing the new software and purchasing all the readers. The process of rewriting the laws to make this legal and mandatory. None of which can take place however until you design a new RFID tag with a 100m range.

To say nothing of the cost of lawsuits when people freak because now their license is broadcasting their location to anyone within 100m who happens to want to tune in.

The cost of the tags themselves is borderline irrelevant.

But any improvement is going to cost money, it doesn't mean the cheaper old ways are better.

And you haven't proven that your new more expensive way does anything useful. Not to mention how it has anything to do with illegal immigration.

And it doesn't have to be all at once. Divide those tens of billions by the number of taxpayers in the US, then again by the several years needed to implement, and then you can have a viable option. Expecting all of the money to appear and be used at once is foolish. Of course, this would require the government to actually spend the money in that area, instead of changing their minds halfway through.

No, all the money doesn't come up all at once but you're still talking hundreds of millions per state over the course of two or three years. State budgets that are already falling short by hundreds of millions of dollars right now. States like California, that can't even pay their own workers.

[Mikey]

Unless you try the blackmail route, he won't know he's been reported till they show up to investigate. And there are plenty of agencies to report to, INS being one of them.

And how the heck will he never work again. No one has to know he was the one who reported. Ever heard of anonymous.

Again, it's nice to think of things like this. The rest of us, unfortunately, live in the real world. If it was so easy to do away with the employment of illegal immigrants, why hasn't it been done? Oh, right - 'cause it's NOT that easy.

I'll say it again, this law encourages the poor execution. Hence the execution makes this law a problem.

#1 - I will say it again: yes, this law sucks because it forces the enforcement officials to make a judgement call, and peoples' judgement calls are iextricably linked with their personal opinions. But the people who enforce law are the only people we have to enforce law; and illegal immigration is an issue which must needs something be done. BTW, Illegal immigration is illegal. I fell like a broken record here, but I just can't understand why so many people are against treating people who break the law as if they were criminals. They ARE criminals. When my great-grandparents and grandparents fled the Third Reich and ended up (through various ways) in England and America, do you know what they did in order to take advantage of the rights and protections of either country? They became legal residents and then citizens. Yes, it required some doing - the branch that went to England actually had to alter their traditional family name - but they did it, because they decided NPT to be criminals.

Already have, read above. And those aren't the only two choices. There's also "MAKE IMPROVEMENTS".

You were talking about RFID's for traffic violations, or some such. You can't just say "make improvements." You have to explain how, who, and who's paying. You keep saying that certain things are worth the money. Sure, but the money ain't there, buddy. The national debt is now up to $47,000 per citizen in the U.S., and our lines of credit are maxed all over Asia and Europe. So what exactly do you propose?

And... it doesn't really matter what you propose. The final analysis is that you are using poor execution by individuals as an indictment of what they are executing, and it doesn't make sense. No matter what system of enforcement you can formulate, there will always be someone with a problem with the execution of that enforcement. So, I'll ask AGAIN: which is it - complete abolition of the rule of law, or deal with the occasional poor execution of enforcement?

They are still illegal and still can disappear without paying.

Yep. Life sucks. Doesn't figure into this conversation at all. It's an unparallel analogy, because the people on that hypothetical boat and plane aren't sucking up resource by way of committing a crime, nor is it their intention to do so - as it is with illegal immigrants.

And we've been doing such a good job at that.
For each one we arrest/deport, two more come in (not exact figures).

Yep - and yet here you are, arguing against a new countermeasure.

[stitch626]

So why are you so against a measure to fix that problem?

Because it won't fix a thing. The law has already been in Federal form in a way, and this one will have no extra benefit. It will only lead to persecution of anyone who looks like a Mexican.

As for fixing the corruption, only way to do that is remove the human factor, and we are a bit ways away from robocops.

Stop this vague "improvements" handwaving. If you think there are viable alternatives, suggest them.

I have suggested ones that could be viable. But no one will make a change for the better if it costs any money unless they have no choice.

The DoT and the Home Office disagree. Not surprisingly, given how much revenue the things pull in.

Really. Then why are there only a handful of them in the US? If they are really so great, then they should actually be around. I know a few areas that could provide thousands a month.

And you're pretty damn clueless about something like this. First off, the tags your father's company uses aren't going to work in this application so their cost is largely irrelevant. Not that it matters much anyways because the tag is the least of your problems. You've also got the cost of printing those licenses and the cost in man power of re-issuing every single license. However before you even get to that point you've got to go through the process of designing and testing the new licenses to get to a design that everyone is happy with and will hold up to the kind of duty people put their licesnses though. The process of designing and testing the new software and purchasing all the readers. The process of rewriting the laws to make this legal and mandatory. None of which can take place however until you design a new RFID tag with a 100m range.

To say nothing of the cost of lawsuits when people freak because now their license is broadcasting their location to anyone within 100m who happens to want to tune in.

The cost of the tags themselves is borderline irrelevant.

1) why would the broadcast need to be 100m? That is ridiculous. A radar gun is pointless at that range because the cop wouldn't be able to tell which vehicle was being read. And if there is only one car there, the RFID is not needed anyway.
2)You don't know what my dad's company uses, so you would have no way of knowing their use here.
3) Liscences expire, and get reissued. You keep forgetting that this isn't a one day, one week, or even a one month deal. This would take years to implement.

Not to mention how it has anything to do with illegal immigration.

It has absolutely nothing to do with immigration, it has to do with speeding. 2 different discussions going on at once.

You were talking about RFID's for traffic violations, or some such.

And I mentioned others (and Seafort mentioned one). Please read.

If it was so easy to do away with the employment of illegal immigrants, why hasn't it been done?

Its not easy, but if people actually tried, things would slowly improve. Everyone complains about stuff, but never bothers to do anything themselves about it, they just expect others to do it for them.

Yep - and yet here you are, arguing against a new countermeasure.

Because all this will do is hassle legal residents and maybe lead to a few actual arrests.

BTW, Illegal immigration is illegal. I fell like a broken record here, but I just can't understand why so many people are against treating people who break the law as if they were criminals. They ARE criminals.

And my issue is not with the illegal ones. I don't care about them. I care about the legal ones who will be negatively effected by this.

[Mikey]

Funny, I've never heard one peep out of you about the racial and economic profiling that goes on all the time without the help of this law. Now this law may continue that but also may help combat a problem, and now there's an issue? I'd rather be inconvenienced if it makes our country healthier.

[Tyyr]

1) why would the broadcast need to be 100m? That is ridiculous. A radar gun is pointless at that range because the cop wouldn't be able to tell which vehicle was being read. And if there is only one car there, the RFID is not needed anyway.

You do realize that 100m is the length of a football field and that radar guns are not only useful at that range but commonly used as well. Most radar guns are designed to be used like their name says, like guns. Not just casually sweeping the distance but pointed at one target in particular? If you're going to be adding the reader to a radar gun why wouldn't you want a reader that has at least the same useful range as the gun?

2)You don't know what my dad's company uses, so you would have no way of knowing their use here.

Unless your father has a magical RFID that can be read 100m away through a metal car I am fairly confident in stating that they're of no use here.

3) Liscences expire, and get reissued. You keep forgetting that this isn't a one day, one week, or even a one month deal. This would take years to implement.

Do you have a driver's license? Take a look at it. Now take a look at the expiration date. Mine doesn't expire for seven more years. I've had it for three. Same with my last license, I had it for a decade. This will take time but once the roll out begins are you going to wait a decade to fully deploy the tech?

And again I am forced to question what the hell is the point of this? How does this prevent foul ups with traffic stops? Will you be planning on just mailing tickets to speeders based off their RFID chips? What if you can't get a clear read of the RFID? What if there are multiple RFID's in the same car? How do you deal with the privacy concerns of citizens who don't want their DL info broadcast all over the airwaves for people to pick up?

[Captain Seafort]

Because it won't fix a thing. The law has already been in Federal form in a way, and this one will have no extra benefit. It will only lead to persecution of anyone who looks like a Mexican.

Really? First time I've heard "having to present ID when a cop pulls you over" described as "persecution".

As for fixing the corruption, only way to do that is remove the human factor, and we are a bit ways away from robocops.

No, it isn't, it simply requires training, anonymous reporting, and coming down on the crooks like a ton of bricks in order to develop a culture in which corruption of all types is not tolerated.

I have suggested ones that could be viable.

You make suggestions when people lean on you - this shouldn't be necessary.

But no one will make a change for the better if it costs any money unless they have no choice.

Correction: No one will cough up billions for a system that either a) won't work, or b) will result in negligible improvements.

Really. Then why are there only a handful of them in the US? If they are really so great, then they should actually be around. I know a few areas that could provide thousands a month.

Because some of your legislation is idiotic. Because there's a legal right of the accused to confront their accuser, there are all sorts of problems around cameras. As a US plod once explained it to me:

each state is handling it differently. Some states have outright ruled those traffic enforcement cameras as illegal. In others you might see the defendant asking for the state to prove that the technology was maintained and actually works. Other states have taken different approaches towards it. Basically, it is highly controversial.

It doesn't help that your lawyers don't get stamped on when they try and dream up incredibly remote hypothetical possibilities to get their clients off the hook for anything and everything, regardless of how solid and reliable the evidence is.

Because all this will do is hassle legal residents and maybe lead to a few actual arrests.

You've been spouting this for some time now. Explain why this is a serious problem. Most people will get pulled over or nicked for something at some point in their lives, and it's no big deal - there is a yawning chasm between that and being convicted, or even charged with an offence.

And my issue is not with the illegal ones. I don't care about them. I care about the legal ones who will be negatively effected by this.

See above. So far as I can see you're complaining about something that's no big deal.

[stitch626]

You make suggestions when people lean on you - this shouldn't be necessary.

No one leaned on me. I was asked once to make a suggestion and I did. Then I was leaned on.


I think I'm done with this (the back and forth thing). I think this is the most I've posted in a day for a while, and it tires me.

[Mikey]

Indeed, and I've got to leave soon for swimming class (my daughter's, not mine. )

I've seen you present options - and not entirely viable ones - for traffic enforcement^*, but no alternative for Arizona to the law against which you're arguing. As to the AZ law itself, you claim that you're not against treating illegal immigrants as illegal; and that you're against the law because of an instance in which a friend of yours ran into poor enforcement of something completely different than this law. Well, I sure can see why you're against profiling, as am I, and why you'd believe that this law might assist the practice to continue, as I've said I do as well; but I've yet to see a solid argument against the law itself rather than against anecdotal personnel problems.

^* - BTW, Tyyr's right about the length of licensing terms in the RFID-dot discussion; but it's even worse than that. An RFID transmitter would have to be tied to the license plate, not the driver's license (number plate, for our UK friends.) People can transfer a registration from car to car to car, leading to some folks having thirty-year-old tags on their cars.