How Would You Have Dealt With The Gaza Blockade-Runners?

[BigJKU316]

Okay so if someone landed on your boat and just started firing mass vollies into a crowd of people around you then you would...? I think its a pretty human response to fight back. I'm not saying that's what happened on the boat, but IF that was what the crowd perceived then their response was very understandable. And in the chaos of the night they might think those paint balls are real live fire and they might think the Israelis are just going to try to kill them all.

If they wanted to kill them all they would have just sank the damn thing.

If they were executing people why did it go down without incident on the other boats?

And the fault still lies entierly with them. They tried to break a blockade and that necessitated a response. If they then mis-interpreted what that response was and attempted to assualt those enforcing the blockade then it sucks to be them.

The facts of the matter are pretty simple.

1. They attempted to break a declared blockade
2. Because of this they forced Israel to respond in a very difficult tactical environment
3. They then assaulted military presonel trying to enforce the blockade and got shot for their trouble.

[Tyyr]

You were suggesting that if the video were to be released it would reveal if the Israelis just started shooting unarmed activists for the hell of it. That is fucking stupid on so many levels. First, to think the Israelis would just start killing these people for the hell of it when they KNOW its a publicity stunt and likely crawling with cameras. Second to think that if that was the Israeli's plan they would actually be so stupid as to film if. Third, to think that if anyone else did film it they wouldn't seize the tape and destroy it. And finally to imagine that if that was on tape the Israelis would ever release it much less keep it.

I keep forgetting that you really are just that stupid.

[Monroe]

If they wanted to kill them all they would have just sank the damn thing.

If they were executing people why did it go down without incident on the other boats?

And the fault still lies entierly with them. They tried to break a blockade and that necessitated a response. If they then mis-interpreted what that response was and attempted to assualt those enforcing the blockade then it sucks to be them.

The facts of the matter are pretty simple.

1. They attempted to break a declared blockade
2. Because of this they forced Israel to respond in a very difficult tactical environment
3. They then assaulted military presonel trying to enforce the blockade and got shot for their trouble.

Its all perception on the 'ground' at the time. Yeah if they wanted to kill everyone they would just sink the boat. But if a helicopter flies by spraying rubber bullets and people see the person next to them shot and fall they might think the Israelis are going to try to kill them. Its all perception and in the dark it could easily been misunderstood.

Tyyr, Israel has been known to not hesitate for shooting civilians in what they consider to be a war zone. Also, there's always the chance that a soldier saw something he thought was a weapon say a camera of the guy that was shot through the skull and killed. Multiple camera angles would help us understand. Was it a misunderstanding on the boarding crew thinking the activists had guns or did the activist think Israelis were opening up with real guns. Or did the activists attack with no provocation. Or did the Israelis begin shooting people with no provocation? Tapes would determine that.

As for the columbine situation, there was hope of police showing up. Look at the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, they were pretty much fucked but they knew surrender meant death. I suppose not everyone would have the reaction but I think a lot of the people on this board would.

[Tyyr]

Monroe, pull your head out of your ass. If there was a tape that showed anything like that in the hands of someone it would have surfaced already. That's not the kind of thing these people will sit on. If the Israeli's got it then the tape/disk/whatever is already melted plastic in an incinerator because they will never, ever let it get out. It's not gonna happen, period.

[BigJKU316]

Its all perception on the 'ground' at the time. Yeah if they wanted to kill everyone they would just sink the boat. But if a helicopter flies by spraying rubber bullets and people see the person next to them shot and fall they might think the Israelis are going to try to kill them. Its all perception and in the dark it could easily been misunderstood.

Ok, so we get back to who is responsible for creating that situation.

Israel had a lawful blockade and these people created the situation. We can no more blame Israel for enforcing their law than we would blame a cop for shooting someone if he was rushed by a mob with clubs. The fact that he tasered one of their friends who tried to resist earlier is not really important if the situation started with them breaking into a store.

[Mikey]

Monroe, I'd be interested to see how you respond to the current situation with the shooting by a Border Patrol officer.

In general, let me ask you about the following hypothetical situation:
There is an area which is under a court-ordered curfew. Not only do you know full well about the curfew, but you also know that the cops there enforce the curfew zealously - perhaps over-zealously - and are damned good at what they do. Would you just stroll into that area after curfew, waving at the cops, even if you have good intentions?

[Monroe]

Monroe, pull your head out of your ass. If there was a tape that showed anything like that in the hands of someone it would have surfaced already. That's not the kind of thing these people will sit on. If the Israeli's got it then the tape/disk/whatever is already melted plastic in an incinerator because they will never, ever let it get out. It's not gonna happen, period.

What are you talking about Tyyr? The Israelis have admitted to having it. They've edited and released parts of it already. We KNOW they have it. If they chose not to release it ever that's why my other condition is that Turkey agree Israel is not at fault. Reason I would take Turkey's investigation as a substitute to footage is because Turkey is going to spend millions of dollars to get to the bottom of this. Turkey is a long time ally of Israel and it happened on a Turkish ship in international waters, which by international law is Turkey's right to investigate.

Its not quite the same as Bigjku's example. Its more akin to speeding and the cop instead of handing you a ticket shoots you. And if that situation happened in real life we'd want to see the tape too. Maybe the driver had a gun or maybe the driver was black and the cop just didn't like that. We would want to see the footage to know what happened.

Mikey, I really don't know much about that situation. Its not quite the same though as there isn't a partide government of people at a near starving condition for that one guy to deliver food and aid too. I really don't know any facts on that particular case BUT I would like to see video if video is available. It would be stupid to believe the officer and not watch video if video is available.

To answer your other situation it would depend on the situation, facts on the ground, did I think I was saving someone's life, etc.

I just think that justice should include investigations of all the evidence. Interviews with the soldiers (which has been denied), footage, interviews with the activists, commander's testimony's, ballistics, etc. None of which except the interviews with the activists are being allowed. This should be treated as a crime and attempt to solve who is at fault. Israel is holding evidence. If Israel is innocent why hold evidence from its ALLY Turkey? Turkey, being a NATO Member we owe it to them to support them in their investigation. That goes for Americans, Canadians, and English. Hell, it goes for anyone who values the rule of law.

[BigJKU316]

Your first problem is that it is not a crime. Israel admits fully to doing it as an act of state. They can and should protect their people and it is exactly what any other nation would do.

[Mikey]

The impression that I get is that his intention was "it is a crime because it was Israel that did it."

Monroe - why are you dodging the questions about the initial transgression: the ships going into the blockade in the first place?

[Monroe]

Your first problem is that it is not a crime. Israel admits fully to doing it as an act of state. They can and should protect their people and it is exactly what any other nation would do.

Yeah its like any crime. They might not be guilty of a crime that's why there is an investigation. By not calling it that its like saying someone who had a dead body of a man he shot in his house was not guilty based on just his word. He may very well not be guilty, just like Israel very well might not be guilty. But we don't know until there is an investigation.

And Mikey you talking about the question I answered like 4 pages ago? I never said Israel didn't have the right to stop the boats once they entered Israeli waters. I didn't think they should have but they had the right to. The question is if Israel shot up a lot of people in cold blood or if it was in self defense. And that's what footage would prove. I'm not dodging any question here, you're just not reading everything I say apparently.

[Mikey]

That's not what I asked. Here: if a blockade is extant, why do you think a ship which has publicly announced that it's carrying contraband should expect to go into the blockade with impunity?

[Monroe]

That's not what I asked. Here: if a blockade is extant, why do you think a ship which has publicly announced that it's carrying contraband should expect to go into the blockade with impunity?

Oh I don't. But like I said before Israel should have used lesser force. Like been there on the shore when the boats arrived and passed out the goods themselves.

[Deepcrush]

Then that would mean that anyone could just walk the blockade... and there for just walk on Israel.

[Monroe]

It becomes more of a customs station than a blockade which I think would be more effective and allow some trade into Gaza.

[Deepcrush]

Minus now you've allowed your enemy the chance to supply weapons right on your shores. Not so effective...