Fleet upgrades - Pick your fleet & tell us what you'd re

Granitehewer · Post by **Granitehewer** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:21 pm

surely depends on the limits of the federation ''economy''......we don't want any dreaded ''no limits'' fallacies here, lol

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:20 pm

True, but I'm not talking about everyship having QTs. I just think that everyship should be built with them in mind. Ablative armour is also a huge upgrade though by how little we've seen would be very costly to produce. Such things as these are part of a the 110 year plan that I have in mind for starfleet. My idea would call for a arms build up that would be unmatched save for if all of the other powers in the AQ and BQ pulled together. By the time this is over I would hope to have refitted the whole of starfleet into a life of its own.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:26 pm

You're assuming the Federation has the industrial capacity to maintain such a build-up, and that the Klingons and Romulans won't be able to match them. Given that the Klingons were at the very least able to match the Feds in industrial output during the YE war, this latter point appears to be unfounded. You'd run the risk of symultaneously wrecking the Fed economy in the same way the Sviets did, and pushing the Romulans and Klingons together out of concern of why you're launching such a buildup.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:52 pm

Thats why I have everything spread out over such a long period of time. The Klingons wont be in any shape to worry about a new arms race. The Cardassians just can't match the UFP and they may even join if given that or take one everyone else who hates the UFP now that the war is over and may want some quick revenge. The Breen and Romulans wouldn't be in much better shape then the Klingons. The Dominion owns the GQ and the UFP would control most of the AQ. The overall plan needs that each member world produce or supply the needed resources to produce a single starship per year and that Starfleet maintain only half of its war time construction rate. Sol and Vulcan would become the prime shipyard systems in this idea. Sol is already well built up and the vulcans are just really good at whatever they do. I would think that starship building wouldn't be to hard for them. Its a very slow, long term plan. Meant to build up the fleet but not in such a way that would be so noticable to everyone else.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:54 pm

By 2378 the Fed has ablative armour and tranphasic torpedos. The other powers can build up all they went - they ain't going nowhere. It seems when the Feds put their mind to it, they can have increadible output - one upgraded Nova is a match for a Negh'var in 2405(ish), one upgraded Intrepid is a match for a small Borg fleet in 2405(ish), one upgraded Galaxy Class is a match for at least two Negh'vars in 2390(ish).
There is no doubt that by the 2370s the Feds have the ability to be the major power in the quadrant, and 2380 onwards (with transphasics and ablative armour), would be the major power in the galaxy.
We know of nothing of the war in YE, other than Picard think's they're loosing at that point. Right after Pearl Harbour, American was losing the 'war' against Japan. It's a matter of perspective, and with only one fleeting comment is hardly a way to determine every effect and who has the greatest industrial, economic, and military capacity. Indeed, showing by the future events, the Fed's ability is far greater than that of the others.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:01 pm

We know the YE war had been raging for 20 years, and Starfleet Command predicted defeat within six months. That shows that the Klingons must have been able to roughly match the Feds industrial output, otherwise they would have been steamrollered, and given Fed technical superiority and larger ships the Klingons probably had the edge.

As for the stuff Voyager brought back, where was it in Nemesis? That was set years after Voyager's return, and yet the E-E had neither the armour nor the torps, despite the ease with which they were fitted to Voyager. The best answer for the flagship not being so equipped is that the Feds had implimentation issues with the technology.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:05 pm

A slow, steady, well planned and thought out build up in both possible and proper. I am the king of Qts and Ablative armour comments but that isn't enough for me to think that the UFP is just the whopper of the AQ. There has to be an idea of where everything is leading to. Transphasic Torpedos are even more rare then my beloved QTs. Ablative armour is still costly to produce and would take time to get the fleet to standard.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:12 pm

Voyager was fitted with the technology with hours of Admiral Janeway's arrival. Even if they took over a year looking at her, and then outfit one ship a week, there would have been dozens of refitted ships by the time of Nemesis, and it's inconceivable that the E-E wouldn't have been one of those ships.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:37 pm

By the time of Endgame, or whatever the episode was, Voyager had undergone so many modifications, refits, tampering, Borg and other alien technology, damage, etc, that it can hardly be considred a standard ship anymore. It's possible that Starfleet's ships simply aren't compatable with the tech.
Or it's possible that the tech is simply to far ahead of Starfleet for them to understand.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:43 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:We know the YE war had been raging for 20 years, and Starfleet Command predicted defeat within six months. That shows that the Klingons must have been able to roughly match the Feds industrial output, otherwise they would have been steamrollered, and given Fed technical superiority and larger ships the Klingons probably had the edge.

In the 2340s and 50s, I'd agree that the Klingons could match the Fed's industrial capacity. Although I'd still reckon with clever people in charge they'd increase their industrial capacity ten fold - the very notion that the Galaxy Class still exists - seemingly with exactly the same armament as in the normal universe, shows just how poor the Federation's building is. There are ships far more effective for their mass out there.
However, we're also talking about the 2370s (or later).

As for the stuff Voyager brought back, where was it in Nemesis? That was set years after Voyager's return, and yet the E-E had neither the armour nor the torps, despite the ease with which they were fitted to Voyager. The best answer for the flagship not being so equipped is that the Feds had implimentation issues with the technology.

Or that they hadn't had time to put it on the Sovereign yet. However, it's irrelevant. The fact the Federation has access to this - willing or not during time of peace to use it - is the important thing. If they have it, they can use it.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:46 pm

This may be a shock that i'm saying this but...

Thats just going to far. I think we need to stick to what is currently open for use. Tech that close by for study doesn't really count so much if we are looking at the short term.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:49 pm

Deepcrush wrote: Thats just going to far. I think we need to stick to what is currently open for use. Tech that close by for study doesn't really count so much if we are looking at the short term.

As I'm told far too often - suspension of disbelief. The Federation has this ability, and has the ability to fit it to any ship with [relatively] minimal work in a matter of days. If they have the ability to use it then they can use it.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:50 pm

Thorin wrote:In the 2340s and 50s, I'd agree that the Klingons could match the Fed's industrial capacity. Although I'd still reckon with clever people in charge they'd increase their industrial capacity ten fold - the very notion that the Galaxy Class still exists - seemingly with exactly the same armament as in the normal universe, shows just how poor the Federation's building is. There are ships far more effective for their mass out there.
However, we're also talking about the 2370s (or later).

The fact that the Klingons could keep up (and be beating the Feds) is proof that their industrial capacity is equal to or superior to the Feds. Whether that is due to raw capacity or Fed stupidity is irrelevent - it shows that Deep's belief that a Fed construction drive could outbuild both the Klingons and the Romulans hs no foundation in canon.

Or that they hadn't had time to put it on the Sovereign yet. However, it's irrelevant. The fact the Federation has access to this - willing or not during time of peace to use it - is the important thing. If they have it, they can use it.

My point is that they haven't demonstrated acess to the technology. It may be that Voyager is the only ship in the fleet that can use it - perhaps for the reasons that Rochey suggested. Until we see evidence of the technology being fitted to other ships then we must conclude that the Federation cannot, for whatever reason, equip the fleet with the Endgame tech.

Post by **Mikey** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:54 pm

Still, there are other technologies out there that can be implemented - that are, in fact, Federation technologies. The AGT GCS travelled at warp 13 and had that phaser lance... and was considered at that time to be BEHIND the SOTA. Granted, AGT was a Q-constructed timeline, but there was no reason for Q to vary the technical details from the "actual" future.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:54 pm

Captain Seafort wrote: The fact that the Klingons could keep up (and be beating the Feds) is proof that their industrial capacity is equal to or superior to the Feds. Whether that is due to raw capacity or Fed stupidity is irrelevent - it shows that Deep's belief that a Fed construction drive could outbuild both the Klingons and the Romulans hs no foundation in canon.

No, it shows that if Deep were talking about the 40s and 50s it would have no foundation. I'm pretty sure he's talking about the 70s or beyond.

My point is that they haven't demonstrated acess to the technology. It may be that Voyager is the only ship in the fleet that can use it - perhaps for the reasons that Rochey suggested. Until we see evidence of the technology being fitted to other ships then we must conclude that the Federation cannot, for whatever reason, equip the fleet with the Endgame tech.

The federation has access to transphasics and ablative armour. Transphasics can clearly be replicated by Voyager - even if no other ship in the Galaxy could replicate them, Voyager would be sent to a secure compound and spend the rest of her days replicating transphasics. The same is true of ablative armour - if only Voyager can build those generators, then once they're built, give them to other ships.
Just because they haven't demonstrated the use of it doesn't mean they don't have the capability. They can't refit every ship at the same time.