Homeless people are criminals!

[SteveK]

Ok, maybe you would like homeless people in your neighborhood, most other people don't. For proof--consider the the myriad ordinances against them passed by a democratically elected assembly.

Why would that be exactly?

I work hard to afford good housing, I don't want to have to step over a bunch of bums to get into my door.

What programs? Would that be the extensive social assistance network that the US provides it's citizens?

Actually, yes. They should be encouraged to take advantage of Section 8 housing (meaning the government pays/subsidizes your rent), food stamps (government buys you food) and welfare (small amount of spending money, for a limited time).


edit: I'd like to make it clear that I'm not an advocate to harassing or arresting homeless people. I think the government's efforts would be better directed towards trying to help these people.

But that doesn't mean I want them sleeping on my lawn.

[Aaron]

Ok, maybe you would like homeless people in your neighborhood, most other people don't. For proof--consider the the myriad ordinances against them passed by a democratically elected assembly.

Yes because a democratically elected assembly automatically makes an ordinance moral.

I work hard to afford good housing, I don't want to have to step over a bunch of bums to get into my door.

I can only imagine that you are exaggerating for effect, in case you haven't noticed, the homeless tend to gather in places where there are access to services like shelters and kitchens. That usually means in the downtown core of a city. It's also warmer there, a serious concern if you live in a northern area.

Actually, yes. They should be encouraged to take advantage of Section 8 housing (meaning the government pays/subsidizes your rent), food stamps (government buys you food) and welfare (small amount of spending money, for a limited time).

*snicker* You keep telling yourself that. What good is the (very limited) welfare if there is no education to go along with it and get them out of the cycle? I understand that America is big on "lift yourself up by the bootstraps" but lets not be silly.

edit: I'd like to make it clear that I'm not an advocate to harassing or arresting homeless people. I think the government's efforts would be better directed towards trying to help these people.



But that doesn't mean I want them sleeping on my lawn.

Well then write your Rep and petition for them to be sent elsewhere, I hear that worked real well for NYC...

[Aaron]

Ok, maybe you would like coloured people in your neighborhood, most other people don't. For proof--consider the the myriad ordinances against them passed by a democratically elected assembly.

Why would that be exactly?

I work hard to afford good housing, I don't want to have to step over a bunch of n*ggers to get into my door.

What programs? Would that be the extensive social assistance network that the US provides it's citizens?

Actually, yes. They should be encouraged to take advantage of Section 8 housing (meaning the government pays/subsidizes your rent), food stamps (government buys you food) and welfare (small amount of spending money, for a limited time).


edit: I'd like to make it clear that I'm not an advocate to harassing or arresting coloured people. I think the government's efforts would be better directed towards trying to help these people.

But that doesn't mean I want them sleeping on my lawn.

Lets try something. Look at the pretty text above.

[Mikey]

Kendall - you're reaching. I know it's for effect, but come on - turn that down.

You are right, however, about all the support programs being simple band-aids if there aren't more and better programs to help break the circle.

What's funny is that city or county lock-ups aren't really nice, but probably better than sleeping on a bench, particularly in a Northern area. They might feed you, too. What they're providing is a rude and expensive shelter system.

[Aaron]

Kendall - you're reaching. I know it's for effect, but come on - turn that down.

The point was to show how absolutely ridiculous the argument is.

You are right, however, about all the support programs being simple band-aids if there aren't more and better programs to help break the circle.

I won't deny that were I homeless I would take the welfare/assisstance even if it was temporary and I was out on the street again a little while later. A few months with something is better than nothing. But it's not enough to just survive, one has to "live".

What's funny is that city or county lock-ups aren't really nice, but probably better than sleeping on a bench, particularly in a Northern area. They might feed you, too. What they're providing is a rude and expensive shelter system.

True. But I'm sure the police have better things to do than round up homeless and feed them for a night.

[SteveK]

*snicker* You keep telling yourself that. What good is the (very limited) welfare if there is no education to go along with it and get them out of the cycle? I understand that America is big on "lift yourself up by the bootstraps" but lets not be silly.

Which is why I stated in my first post:

However, the existence of homeless people is really a problem with the mental health and social service systems.

[Aaron]

*snicker* You keep telling yourself that. What good is the (very limited) welfare if there is no education to go along with it and get them out of the cycle? I understand that America is big on "lift yourself up by the bootstraps" but lets not be silly.

Which is why I stated in my first post:

However, the existence of homeless people is really a problem with the mental health and social service systems.

I would say it's a failing of the entire system not just the mental/social services. The fundemental problem is attitude, it seems if your poor in the States than you just must not be working hard enough. There's a member on this board that was homeless for a time, I'm sure he could regale us all with stories of the attitude towards the down and out.

[Tsukiyumi]

Not like I was panhandling, but the cops sure gave me a hard time.

BTW, Section 8 only covers your rent if you're forcibly removed from your residence (house burns down, Katrina turns your neighborhood into a lake, landlord goes into foreclosure, etc); it doesn't help you if you lose your job, and can't afford to pay your rent. Unemployment is extremely temporary, and disability assistance is a joke; you have to prove your injuries before they'll help you. I honestly don't have $2,000 for an MRI. And food stamps are extremely limited unless you have kids.

Granted, this is all SOP in Texas; perhaps it's better in other states.

[Mark]

In Hawaii, it's a little too easy to be homeless. 95 percent of people that are homeless in Hawaii are drug addicts. In this state, that is considered a disability. Therefore, if your a drug addict you can collect welfare. For a single man or woman without kids that's $418 a month. Then you get about $120-$150 in food stamps as well, and everyone on welfare gets medical insurence from the state (welfare folks have better coverage than I get through work). If you have kids, it's an extra $220 a month cash plus another $200 in foodstamps. And since it's always the same weather out here year round, people have no problem with getting a tent and living on the beach. Our mayor is trying to make that illegal by "closing" the beach parks at 10 pm, but the homeless settlements just keep moving. They are really like gypsey communities, they become so large.

[Tsukiyumi]

...And since it's always the same weather out here year round, people have no problem with getting a tent and living on the beach...

That's what I did. Of course, a tropical storm came through and ended that excursion soon enough.

Disability for drug addiction, eh? I can't get a dime for blown ACLs, and barely being able to walk...

[SteveK]

Not like I was panhandling, but the cops sure gave me a hard time.

BTW, Section 8 only covers your rent if you're forcibly removed from your residence (house burns down, Katrina turns your neighborhood into a lake, landlord goes into foreclosure, etc); it doesn't help you if you lose your job, and can't afford to pay your rent. Unemployment is extremely temporary, and disability assistance is a joke; you have to prove your injuries before they'll help you. I honestly don't have $2,000 for an MRI. And food stamps are extremely limited unless you have kids.

Granted, this is all SOP in Texas; perhaps it's better in other states.

http://www.hud.gov/progdesc/voucher.cfm

Regarding eligibility requirements they only refer to income.

[Tsukiyumi]

http://www.hud.gov/progdesc/voucher.cfm

Regarding eligibility requirements they only refer to income.

Seems you're right. However, near the bottom is this:

Funding Status:
Currently, HUD is not accepting new applications; it is only extending expiring commitments and vouchers dedicated for special purposes. HUD spent an estimated $15.5 billion for all Section 8 programs in fiscal year (FY) 1996 and $16.7 billion in FY 1997.

So, that still doesn't help.

[SteveK]

The language they use is a little confusing. The applications they're referring to are grants to build low-income housing. Suppose I wanted to build an apartment complex but I can't get traditional funding, I could apply (well apparently not anymore ...) to HUD and they'll give me a grant/ subsidize a loan. I am then under contract to provide quality housing to people with low-income for a set amount of years (usually 30--it was big news in my town when the "grant period" for the local apartment complex ran out.)


Here's some more information on Texas, I seem to recall you saying you lived there.

http://www.hud.gov/local/index.cfm?stat ... ic=renting


edit: I hate to belabor the point, but this is a pretty clear example of where the social service system is a bit F'd up. I can imagine quite a few people who would otherwise be entitled to public assistance thinking "Oh crap, guess they already gave all the money away. Guess I'll be homeless"

[Tsukiyumi]

Well, that one on Fountainview isn't absurdly far. If things get really rough again, I'll bus my ass over there.

Still, the idea of treating the homeless as criminals is absurd. Sort of hard to look up government offices when you have no phone book or phone, nor a bus card (they're eliminating cash service here to cut costs). What do you do, walk up to a cop and ask them to bring you over there?

EDIT: BTW, the odds of "Guess I'll be homeless" going through anyone's mind are about as good as the odds of me being able to climb a mountain.

[Mark]

What will be next? Debtor's prison?