Horta

[Sionnach Glic]

Which can easily be attributed to the different lighting effects as the first picture was taken in natural lighting while the second two were taken in artificial lighting.

And it can be attributed even easier to the fact that it's a different type of weapon.

Face it: Occam's Razor proves you to be wrong.
It is called something different.
It has different effects.
The beam itself looks somewhat different.
Ergo, by Occam's Razor, it is a different weapon. Your only "proof" to the contrary is that the weapon itself looks identical to a phaser weapon, a fact which I've already explained.

[Captain Seafort]

Well, simple, phasers wouldn't melt the whole wall, only the area around where the beam hit. We've seen this type of effect throughout Star Trek, where it only effects a small area as opposed to the entire thing.

An outright lie. The typical TOS "vapourisation" involves the entire object simultaneously lighting up and then fading completely, not a small area of it.

[Sionnach Glic]

An outright lie.

Who would believe such a thing?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Which can easily be attributed to the different lighting effects as the first picture was taken in natural lighting while the second two were taken in artificial lighting.

And it can be attributed even easier to the fact that it's a different type of weapon.

A different type of weapon with an identical beam? That's just stupid.

Face it: Occam's Razor proves you to be wrong.

I thought it said the simplist solution that fits the facts was the right one, in which case it proves me right.

It is called something different.

So? I could call you Einstien but that wouldn't make you a genius.

It has different effects.

no it didn't. The "laser" pistols melted a wall with a heat effect and vaporized a person, phasers have a heat setting and can vaporize a person...and that's different how?

The beam itself looks somewhat different.

Barely. Something that could be attributed to beam strength or simple lighting effects

Ergo, by Occam's Razor, it is a different weapon.

Except that your conclusions are all wrong, going along a more complex route rather then the simplist solution.

Your only "proof" to the contrary is that the weapon itself looks identical to a phaser weapon, a fact which I've already explained.

And which I already refuted by pointing out the idiocy behind it.

An outright lie. The typical TOS "vapourisation" involves the entire object simultaneously lighting up and then fading completely, not a small area of it.

Oh, gee and no where else in trek did the phaser not effect a small area as opposed to the entire object?

[Sionnach Glic]

A different type of weapon with an identical beam? That's just stupid.

As I've just shown, the beams are different. If you believe they're the same then you're either lying or losing your sight.

I thought it said the simplist solution that fits the facts was the right one,

Correct.

in which case it proves me right.

Incorrect. Your conclusion requires the rationalisation of facts which otherwise do not need to be rationalised, whereas mine requires no rationalisation at all. Ergo mine is correct.

So? I could call you Einstien but that wouldn't make you a genius.

The fact that its operators specificaly call one weapon a phaser and the other a laser indicates that it is a different type of weapon.

no it didn't. The "laser" pistols melted a wall with a heat effect and vaporized a person, phasers have a heat setting and can vaporize a person...and that's different how?

Hello? Seriously, I'm starting to wonder about your eyesight. Either that or you memory.
We've just shown that the laser weapon only affects the immediate area where the beam hits.
Phaser weapons affect the entirety of the object struck, with effects radiating away from the point of impact.
Ergo, different effects.

Barely. Something that could be attributed to beam strength or simple lighting effects

Or we could just say it's a different beam, due to the fact that it's a different weapon. There, no rationalisation required and it keep everything perfectly to canon.

Except that your conclusions are all wrong, going along a more complex route rather then the simplist solution.

Incorrect. Yours is not the simplest solution.
Your solution requires every member of Starfleet at that point to call a phaser weapon a laser, for no apparent reason.
It requires phasers to exhibit a trait that it never exhibits any other time.
It requires the rationalisation of why the beam looks somewhat different.

Whereas my solution requires....nothing. With mine I just accept the weapon is what the users call it: a laser.
Ergo, mine is simplest.
Ergo, Occam's Razor is on my side.
Ergo, this debate is finished.

Oh, gee and no where else in trek did the phaser not effect a small area as opposed to the entire object?

Provide proof of a TOS era phaser affecting only a small area of a target rather than the entire object, or conceed.

[Captain Seafort]

A different type of weapon with an identical beam? That's just stupid.

Your attention span is getting ever shorter - read up a few posts and then come back and retract that.

I thought it said the simplist solution that fits the facts was the right one, in which case it proves me right.

Important bit emphasised in triplicate for you.

So? I could call you Einstien but that wouldn't make you a genius.

Was that meant to be a refutation.

no it didn't. The "laser" pistols melted a wall with a heat effect and vaporized a person, phasers have a heat setting and can vaporize a person...and that's different how?

The laser melted through a wall. The phaser, identified as such by its demonstrated effects, "vapourised" people.

Barely. Something that could be attributed to beam strength or simple lighting effects

Or, more likely, the fact that they're different weapons.

Except that your conclusions are all wrong, going along a more complex route rather then the simplist solution.

The simplest solution that fits all the facts. Get that last bit through your skull.

And which I already refuted by pointing out the idiocy behind it.

You've done nothing of the sort.

Oh, gee and no where else in trek did the phaser not effect a small area as opposed to the entire object?

Not in TOS - the entire object hit always lit up before fading.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

The laser melted through a wall. The phaser, identified as such by its demonstrated effects, "vapourised" people

We have seen the laser melt through a wall indicating a heat setting. We have seen an identical weapon vaporize people. We have seen phasers with both heat and vaporize settings.

The simplest solution that fits all the facts. Get that last bit through your skull

It does fit the facts. More so then your solution does.

And which I already refuted by pointing out the idiocy behind it.

You've done nothing of the sort.

Now who's lying?

So your theory is that they had lasers, then developed these phasers, and these phasers just happen to fit perfectly inside the laser gun's casing, and match it's weight so that it can be easily used just like the laser? What are the chances that a newly developed weapons technology happens to fit inside the casing of previous weapons, while matching how it handles? It seems infinatly more likely that they were using the word "laser" as a generic term for energy weapons, like phasers.

Not in TOS - the entire object hit always lit up before fading

I was talking about the heat effect, not the vaporizing effect.

s I've just shown, the beams are different. If you believe they're the same then you're either lying or losing your sight.

They are red translucent beams. Nothing different about that.

Your conclusion requires the rationalisation of facts which otherwise do not need to be rationalised, whereas mine requires no rationalisation at all. Ergo mine is correct

You conclusion requires the rationalization that a weapon identical to a laser is a phaser.

The fact that its operators specificaly call one weapon a phaser and the other a laser indicates that it is a different type of weapon

So if I'm holding an shotgun but call it a rifle does that mean it's a rifle?

We've just shown that the laser weapon only affects the immediate area where the beam hits

You've shown that the heat only affects the immediate area the beam hits, which is not contridicted by any other phaser incident.

Phaser weapons affect the entirety of the object struck, with effects radiating away from the point of impact

Only when vaporizing it.

Ergo, different effects

or different settings

Or we could just say it's a different beam, due to the fact that it's a different weapon. There, no rationalisation required and it keep everything perfectly to canon.

Different weapons perhaps, but that doesn't mean they're not both phasers. Different guns fire different size bullets but they're all guns.

Your solution requires every member of Starfleet at that point to call a phaser weapon a laser, for no apparent reason.

First of all, you shouldn't lie. Second of all it only requires a handful of people to be stuck with old teminology. A modern analog would be like when Graham called a console system a computer. Different teminology from different periods. Nothing unusual about that.

It requires phasers to exhibit a trait that it never exhibits any other time

because heat has never been seen as a phaser setting anywhere else...oh wait

It requires the rationalisation of why the beam looks somewhat different.

No, it requires no rationalisation what so ever. Just because weapons are the same type doesn't mean they always have the same 'beam'/projectile coming out of it.

Whereas my solution requires....nothing

Every time you lie, god kills a puppy. You conclusion requires the rationalization that a weapon identical to a laser is a phaser.

Ergo, mine is simplest

Wrong

Ergo, Occam's Razor is on my side.

Wrong

Ergo, this debate is finished

Wrong. (Three strikes, you're out of here )

Provide proof of a TOS era phaser affecting only a small area of a target rather than the entire object

Here you can see the phaser only affecting a small portion of this unfortunate Horta. An injury the Bones later has to repair despite his claim of being "I'm a doctor not a bricklayer".


---

You know once a long time ago, I swore I'd never make one of these uber-long posts because they're annoying...my how things change.

[stitch626]

Wow

Well, only thing I have to add is about your car comment. The original term "car" refers to any motor vehicle that used a carborator. This includes trucks, vans, and motorbikes, and very loosly, many propeler aircraft. So by refering to any modern automobile, the term car is incorect if you realy want to be picky about it.

About the laser, well, I've already said that they are not entirelly identical. Yet you keep calling them identical.

[Mikey]

Blackstar - I don't have time or patience right now to go back through everything and quote it, so here's a summation:

YOU pointed out that lasers don't have entire-body vaporization effects. The later pistols do. Therefore, by YOUR argument, the later pistols aren't lasers.

Further, the weapons in "The Cage" are called lasers onscreen. That is canon. Moreover, "The Cage" depicts effects more in keeping with a laser than with the effects we later saw of a phaser. The fact that you have to conjecturalize an explanation involving vernacular denies you the use of Occam's Razor. We have pointed out on numerous occasions that it simply doesn't make sense for "laser" to be a colloquialism for "phaser," for a variety of reasons.

Ergo, they're two different weapons. The fact that they look similar is meaningless.

BTW - call someone a liar one more time for merely disagreeing with you, particularly when you do it because you know you're fighting for an incorrect position, and I will immediately take action. Call someone a liar when they lie - not because you've been proven wrong and can't support your position. I'm willing to debate until the cows come home, but not to put up with people who use puerile defense mechanisms in place of debate.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Blackstar - I don't have time or patience right now to go back through everything and quote it, so here's a summation:

YOU pointed out that lasers don't have entire-body vaporization effects. The later pistols do. Therefore, by YOUR argument, the later pistols aren't lasers.

That's what I'm saying!

Further, the weapons in "The Cage" are called lasers onscreen. That is canon.

I could call a pistol a shotgun, but that doesn't make it one.

We have pointed out on numerous occasions that it simply doesn't make sense for "laser" to be a colloquialism for "phaser," for a variety of reasons.

And I've pointed out why it does

Ergo, they're two different weapons. The fact that they look similar is meaningless.

Wrong. I can fit a pistol with a silencer which makes it look differently but it's still a pistol.

BTW - call someone a liar one more time for merely disagreeing with you, particularly when you do it because you know you're fighting for an incorrect position, and I will immediately take action.

Seafort called me a liar for disagreeing with him yet you failed to threaten him with action. It's one thing to threaten punishment but it's another when you're letting another guy walk for the same thing.

I quote:

Well, simple, phasers wouldn't melt the whole wall, only the area around where the beam hit. We've seen this type of effect throughout Star Trek, where it only effects a small area as opposed to the entire thing.

An outright lie. The typical TOS "vapourisation" involves the entire object simultaneously lighting up and then fading completely, not a small area of it.

I disagreed with him, and then he tried turning the conversation into looking like I lied, which I didn't, by making it look like I was talking about the vapourisation effect as opposed to the heat effect, which is even more dishonest.

[Captain Seafort]

That's what I'm saying!

Nobody's disputing the fact that the weapons in WALGMO are phasers - what's being pointed out to you is that the ones in The Cage aren't - they're lasers. The later weapons simply use a similar casing.

I could call a pistol a shotgun, but that doesn't make it one.

No - the design of the weapon and its observed effects does. The effects of the weapons in "The Cage" are consistent with lasers.

And I've pointed out why it does

You have not. You've waffled and bullshitted, but you have provided no coherent reason why they would go from using specific terms, to a general catch-all, and back to specific terms.

Wrong. I can fit a pistol with a silencer which makes it look differently but it's still a pistol.

What exactly makes you think this is at all relevent?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

That's what I'm saying!

Nobody's disputing the fact that the weapons in WALGMO are phasers - what's being pointed out to you is that the ones in The Cage aren't - they're lasers. The later weapons simply use a similar casing.

How does a phaser just happen to fit in a similar casing to the laser?

I could call a pistol a shotgun, but that doesn't make it one.

No - the design of the weapon and its observed effects does. The effects of the weapons in "The Cage" are consistent with lasers.[/quote]

The effect of the same type of weapon in WALGMO is not consistant with lasers

And I've pointed out why it does

You have not. You've waffled and bullshitted, but you have provided no coherent reason why they would go from using specific terms, to a general catch-all, and back to specific terms.

It doesn't need a reason. People do weird things for no reason at all.

Wrong. I can fit a pistol with a silencer which makes it look differently but it's still a pistol.

What exactly makes you think this is at all relevent?

I thought that was obvious but I guess I'll spell it out for you. The silencer has no effect on what the weapon is. The add-on parts seen in WALGMO could be just for show, or for comfort, like the added 'butt' I believe is the term, could make the weapon more balenced, since it does look heavy in the barrel end.

[Sionnach Glic]

How does a phaser just happen to fit in a similar casing to the laser?

I've explained this before. Pay attention.

The effect of the same type of weapon in WALGMO is not consistant with lasers

Wrong. The effect of a weapon with a similar casing in WALGMO is not consistant with the effects of the weapon shown in The Cage.
Simplest answer: They're different weapons.
Proof of the above: They are reffered to by different names by people trained in their use.

It doesn't need a reason. People do weird things for no reason at all.

Adress the point. Drop the vague handwaving.

[Captain Seafort]

How does a phaser just happen to fit in a similar casing to the laser?

Because the parts of the phaser are about the same size as the laser's casing. If anything the casing is quite a bit bigger than the phaser.

The effect of the same type of weapon in WALGMO is not consistant with lasers.

No sh*t Sherlock. Nobody's disputing that - what we are disputing is whether the WALGMO and Cage weapons are the same weapon. The fact that they have different effects is evidence of this.

It doesn't need a reason. People do weird things for no reason at all.

Bollocks. People do things for strange reasons, or for stupid reasons, but never for no reason. And it is an exceptionally rare event that they switch from using a catch-all description to a much more specific description for a given item within a few years.

I thought that was obvious but I guess I'll spell it out for you. The silencer has no effect on what the weapon is. The add-on parts seen in WALGMO could be just for show, or for comfort, like the added 'butt' I believe is the term, could make the weapon more balenced, since it does look heavy in the barrel end.

Thanks for proving, yet again, that you're utterly clueless.

The two weapons, in The Cage and WALGMO, are almost indistinguishable visually. However, their observed properties are completely different, as the former displays thermal effects while the latter displays the typical phaser effect. If you had two identical-looking pisols, one of which fired bullets and the other was a flamethrower, would you consider them to be identical weapons?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

How does a phaser just happen to fit in a similar casing to the laser?

Because the parts of the phaser are about the same size as the laser's casing. If anything the casing is quite a bit bigger than the phaser.

Wouldn't it make more sense that these are earlier version of phasers(thus the components would be more primitive and probably larger) then a compleatly different weapons system fit inside the same casing?

No sh*t Sherlock. Nobody's disputing that - what we are disputing is whether the WALGMO and Cage weapons are the same weapon. The fact that they have different effects is evidence of this.

Or it could be evidence of them being on different settings. We've seen phasers with stun, heat, kill, and vaporize settings.

It doesn't need a reason. People do weird things for no reason at all.

Bollocks. People do things for strange reasons, or for stupid reasons, but never for no reason. And it is an exceptionally rare event that they switch from using a catch-all description to a much more specific description for a given item within a few years.[/quote]

Rare but not unprecidented. An example is where old timers like Graham used to commonly call game consoles, computers(which technically they are) but they soon became known as consoles as opposed the computers.

The two weapons, in The Cage and WALGMO, are almost indistinguishable visually. However, their observed properties are completely different, as the former displays thermal effects while the latter displays the typical phaser effect. If you had two identical-looking pisols, one of which fired bullets and the other was a flamethrower, would you consider them to be identical weapons?

Your analogy is interesting but flawed. In this situation each gun only has one effect that can't be duplicated by the other gun(at least I'm assuming that's what you mean). However if one pistol can shoot bullets and be used as a flamethrower(I'm pretty sure that's not possible with modern technology, but for the sake of arguemtent let's assume it is) I'd have no reason to assume the other identical pistol couldn't shoot bullets and be used as a flamethrower as well.

Wrong. The effect of a weapon with a similar casing in WALGMO is not consistant with the effects of the weapon shown in The Cage

The effect of both weapons are consistant with known phaser abilities.
Simplist solution: They're both phasers.