Uncontacted tribes

[Monroe]

Here's a thought. Isn't it rather arrogant of us to decide that these people should continue living their traditional lifestyle? Shouldn't we make contact with them and offer them the advantages of the modern world, then let them decide their own fate?

I totally agree with this one. Someone should contact them and let them know that they have a choice. Give them pros and cons. Have the person dressed like they are so they don't assume they are a god.

[Mikey]

How is it arrogant? All I'm thinking is that we haven't had reason to contact them, so why introduce such a reason artificially?

[Duskofdead]

It's not that it's more noble, the reason it's sad is because once that culture is gone, it's gone. One unique way of life wiped off the earth and replaced by more people holding cellphones and drinking lattes. I'm all for choice. But I don't really celebrate the idea of assimilating everyone into our culture or making doing so a prerequisite of survival in the modern world. If multiple cultures can be accomodated by the globe, they should be. Not artifically or by force, but by choice when appropriate. And it should be respected.

It's not a matter of celebrating their assimilation. I'm all for people living the lifestyle they want to live, but that's just the point - it must be the lifestyle they WANT to live. Working to limit or deny their choices simply to keep them in a culture that you judge worth preserving when the people who are actually living it do not, is absurd.

That's what happened in Natural Law. Chakotay and Seven spent days with those people, learned to communicate with them... and at no point did either one of them think to even try and ask them what they wanted.

Likewise with these tribes. People are saying we should leave them isolated, uncontacted - and why? Precisely so they will have no other choice but to live as they always have.

I say give them the choice. And if they choose not to preserve their culture, then their culture is not worth preservation.

I don't think we should impose some Planet Sigma Iotia ban forbidding anyone to contact these people. But I think haphazardly barging into their society could cause enormous trauma, not just culturally but epidemiologically as well. If someone does it, it needs to be under stringently cautious and culturally sensitive conditions. I don't hold out much faith that a land developer in S. America or an anthropological team from the U.S. or western world would do so very well, there is certainly little evidence that they have done so in the past. "Choice" has largely been offered to tribes after the damage was done, diseases were passed around, cultures were destroyed, people were dispossessed and driven off their lands, and pushed to the edge of extinction. It's a pattern that has been repeated, intentionally or unintentionally, over and over throughout history in the American hemisphere and it is inexcusable for people not to learn from those mistakes.

With all due respect, people who are pretty vastly removed from these experiences in the Americas should be careful about assuming they know enough about the history and repercussions of contact between the west and indigenous peoples to wave their hand with a simple obvious answer proposal.

[Tsukiyumi]

...I don't think we should impose some Planet Sigma Iotia ban forbidding anyone to contact these people. But I think haphazardly barging into their society could cause enormous trauma, not just culturally but epidemiologically as well. If someone does it, it needs to be under stringently cautious and culturally sensitive conditions. I don't hold out much faith that a land developer in S. America or an anthropological team from the U.S. or western world would do so very well, there is certainly little evidence that they have done so in the past. "Choice" has largely been offered to tribes after the damage was done, diseases were passed around, cultures were destroyed, people were dispossessed and driven off their lands, and pushed to the edge of extinction. It's a pattern that has been repeated, intentionally or unintentionally, over and over throughout history in the American hemisphere and it is inexcusable for people not to learn from those mistakes.

With all due respect, people who are pretty vastly removed from these experiences in the Americas should be careful about assuming they know enough about the history and repercussions of contact between the west and indigenous peoples to wave their hand with a simple obvious answer proposal.

So... You're saying we shouldn't airlift a McDonalds/Starbucks into the jungle? Huh. I'd think a grande mocha latte would be a real bright spot, living in the wet, bug-infested jungle and all.

[Duskofdead]

So... You're saying we shouldn't airlift a McDonalds/Starbucks into the jungle? Huh. I'd think a grande mocha latte would be a real bright spot, living in the wet, bug-infested jungle and all.

Basically.

A blunter way of putting it would be we've seen what happened everytime contemporary western people thought they knew what was best and just barged into indigenous cultures. It tended to result in genocide, directly, indirectly, intentionally, unintentionally, or not. It's frustrating to see people so casually disregarding this repeated trend in the history of contact.

[Tsukiyumi]

So... You're saying we shouldn't airlift a McDonalds/Starbucks into the jungle? Huh. I'd think a grande mocha latte would be a real bright spot, living in the wet, bug-infested jungle and all.

Basically.

A blunter way of putting it would be we've seen what happened everytime contemporary western people thought they knew what was best and just barged into indigenous cultures. It tended to result in genocide, directly, indirectly, intentionally, unintentionally, or not. It's frustrating to see people so casually disregarding this repeated trend in the history of contact.

As you know, I am well aware of that fact. I just don't see the situation going down like that in the 21st century. Vaccines can mitigate contagion, and as you said, we shouldn't forbid everyone from contacting these people. I just think it would be better if contact was made by a well-equipped and knowlegeable group of benevolent individuals rather than some corporation or government trying to exploit them in some way. The world will eventually catch up to these people, and I think they should be informed before it does. Forewarned is forearmed, right?

[Teaos]

Do these people in their primitive lives have a better life than us?

[Graham Kennedy]

How is it arrogant? All I'm thinking is that we haven't had reason to contact them, so why introduce such a reason artificially?

Here's a reason. It's likely that the life expectancy and infant mortality of these people is far lower than it would be with access to real medicine. Contacting them could result in fewer dead babies. Reason enough?

[sunnyside]

Here's a reason. It's likely that the life expectancy and infant mortality of these people is far lower than it would be with access to real medicine. Contacting them could result in fewer dead babies. Reason enough?

Considering many in both our societies rank babies up there with dust bunnies (things vacuum cleaners should remove) I don't think that reason would fly.

Also unless you want to give them green cards they aren't going to be offered UK citizenship. They'd be offered whatever Brazil has. Which, as South American countries go isn't so bad but still.

I think that reality is part of the problem. Right now they're manly hunter gatherers. Respected by others in their tribe. In modern society? They're only qualified to clean other peoples shit out of the inside of toilets.

I think that highlights the problem of contact. It would be hard to not make it sound like a combination of bragging and degredation.

[Graham Kennedy]

Here's a reason. It's likely that the life expectancy and infant mortality of these people is far lower than it would be with access to real medicine. Contacting them could result in fewer dead babies. Reason enough?

Considering many in both our societies rank babies up there with dust bunnies (things vacuum cleaners should remove) I don't think that reason would fly.

No, they don't. They rank foetuses as having a lesser right to exist than a woman's right over her own body, which is a completely different thing.

Also unless you want to give them green cards they aren't going to be offered UK citizenship. They'd be offered whatever Brazil has. Which, as South American countries go isn't so bad but still.

But still what? But still isn't better than living in mud huts? I don't think so.

I think that reality is part of the problem. Right now they're manly hunter gatherers. Respected by others in their tribe. In modern society? They're only qualified to clean other peoples **** out of the inside of toilets.

Nothing wrong with that., if it's what they choose to do.

[Duskofdead]

How is it arrogant? All I'm thinking is that we haven't had reason to contact them, so why introduce such a reason artificially?

Here's a reason. It's likely that the life expectancy and infant mortality of these people is far lower than it would be with access to real medicine. Contacting them could result in fewer dead babies. Reason enough?

Every bit as arrogant to disregard the damage it may cause to barge in by rattling off a list of western advancements you could bless them with.

[Graham Kennedy]

How is it arrogant? All I'm thinking is that we haven't had reason to contact them, so why introduce such a reason artificially?

Here's a reason. It's likely that the life expectancy and infant mortality of these people is far lower than it would be with access to real medicine. Contacting them could result in fewer dead babies. Reason enough?

Every bit as arrogant to disregard the damage it may cause to barge in by rattling off a list of western advancements you could bless them with.

Offering people a choice is damaging them? How do you work that out?

[sunnyside]

No, they don't. They rank foetuses as having a lesser right to exist than a woman's right over her own body, which is a completely different thing.

Obviously I'm exaggerating but I'm just saying the baby arguement doesn't carry a lot of weight really.

I think that reality is part of the problem. Right now they're manly hunter gatherers. Respected by others in their tribe. In modern society? They're only qualified to clean other peoples **** out of the inside of toilets.

Nothing wrong with that., if it's what they choose to do.

I'm not sure they'd understand that choice. I doubt whoever makes contact will bring along a toilet and a brush to demonstrate. I'm guessing the pitch would be all the wonders of the world followed by a harsh reality of crap and firewater. This is a legal issue that is struggled with a lot in the US in regards to medical treatment. Even when you present all the information people have a tendency to just hear "you'll get better and be fine" especially when they don't have a solid grasp of medical terminology and the like.

Of course society somehow could offer them an aid package during entry. But making society pay for others is a whole different issue you can discuss with Teaos.

Also, likely, you're only giving half of them a choice. The others who wanted to stay will be left in a society that just lost half its membership, and may no longer have the genetic diversity or diversity of skills to survive. Particularily if its the younger members leaving, as is often the case.

Also there isn't any way, really, to shut off the disease issue. Though there are things that can be done to help.

[Duskofdead]

Offering people a choice is damaging them? How do you work that out?

The CONTACT ITSELF damages them. Yes, offer them choice, but we're talking years of careful contact with lab-like safety precautions so that someone doesn't slip these people measles or something that causes a 30% fataility rate.

I'm sorry but are you somehow missing the fact that you can't simply send a cellphone salesperson, an electrician, and an architect into a totally uncontacted tribe and start going about modernizing them?

[stitch626]

Here's a reason. It's likely that the life expectancy and infant mortality of these people is far lower than it would be with access to real medicine. Contacting them could result in fewer dead babies. Reason enough?

We should never make assumptions. We have no way of knowing what their infant mortalitly rate is, or their quality of living. For all we know, they could have 0% infant mortality, other than from dangerous animals.