Iran cracks down on Baha'i

[sunnyside]

So basically, Dusk, you'd only support a Republican who tells you to vote for the Democrats? Ok that's probably an exageration. But McCain has criticised and opposed Bush on a number of issues, such as those we've mentioned. But he still wants to win this thing.

I don't give Obama crap for not laying some Bill Cosby style smackdown on some of his constituents that could use it.

@Rochey
I honestly don't know how the US compares to a wide range of other countries patriotism wise. Certainly a wide array of nations have gone past patriotic to hardcore nationalistic. Though I"m not sure if that always results in flag flying as a way to show it. I mean just having the resources to machine flags that people could fly is, as nations go, a fairly new thing, so it wouldn't traditional most places.

Still I think it's less that America is wildly patriotic as it is that the world as a whole seems to be becoming less patriotic than it was even 100 years ago. Certainly than it was 200 years ago.

Part of patriotism sticking around could just be American nature. We did go from being non existant to the only world superpower after all. But i think part of it could be that because we're that superpower we've more or less be involved in some war or other non-stop since WWII.

[Duskofdead]

I was very pro-McCain prior to Bush's first term. I don't like how he has sold out, eventually, on almost everything of importance, or changed positions, based on which way the wind was blowing. And I don't like that he made token oppositions to things like the torture, only to quietly abide with Bush's agenda later. The exact same criticism applies to Hillary.

In fact, since 2000, very little differentiates Hillary and McCain. Both are slightly crazy, very out of touch white folk who have been long obsessed with manuevering for the Presidency. The only difference is one is is older than Methuselah and the other is a Jezebel.

His support of the war is also b.s., and yes, I think his defense of the war and his association, however unwillingly, with Bush's presidency is political suicide, and he's already committed it.

[Sionnach Glic]

*snip*

So, mostly just jingoism?

I honestly don't know how the US compares to a wide range of other countries patriotism wise. Certainly a wide array of nations have gone past patriotic to hardcore nationalistic. Though I"m not sure if that always results in flag flying as a way to show it. I mean just having the resources to machine flags that people could fly is, as nations go, a fairly new thing, so it wouldn't traditional most places.

I'm talking about modern nations, not the fascist nations of the early 20th century. Like I said, no modern nation has anywhere near the degree of flag-waving patriotism that you see as common in the US.

Still I think it's less that America is wildly patriotic as it is that the world as a whole seems to be becoming less patriotic than it was even 100 years ago. Certainly than it was 200 years ago.

Part of patriotism sticking around could just be American nature. We did go from being non existant to the only world superpower after all. But i think part of it could be that because we're that superpower we've more or less be involved in some war or other non-stop since WWII.

Suppose so.

[Duskofdead]

So, mostly just jingoism?

I seriously doubt if most of the people flying flags over their house could give super explicit reasons why they're "patriotic." The reasons they do give usually have nothing to do with our foreign policy... it's usually cause this is where my grandparents found opportunity, or because we have freedom, etc. "Because we cater to military contractors" isn't usually on the list. That's what kills me about when people ask about your patriotism for criticizing America's policies.

[sunnyside]

I'm not sure what you've personally experienced Dusk. But there is some difference between John Q Public and what politicians are subjected to.

I mean imagine you're in a fight and you figure out the other guy doesn't seem to be able to block shots to the face from the left. You're going to throw a lot of punches theer when you get the chance.

Similarily Republican candidates know the Democratic candidates often take a bruising on patriotism. While people don't expect what you seem to think they do. They do want a president that seriously cares about America and that will make America more powerful, more influencial, wealthier etc etc etc. Of course nobody is going to say "I really don't care about America, I just want to be President and enact some changes I like" so people are looking for other stuff. And so they'll attached extra significance to things like Obama not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem or something.

I do think the technique is trickling down though. I think radio people use it in arguments. And so maybe indaviduals are also taking to it.

[Duskofdead]

I'm not sure what you've personally experienced Dusk. But there is some difference between John Q Public and what politicians are subjected to.

I mean imagine you're in a fight and you figure out the other guy doesn't seem to be able to block shots to the face from the left. You're going to throw a lot of punches theer when you get the chance.

Similarily Republican candidates know the Democratic candidates often take a bruising on patriotism. While people don't expect what you seem to think they do. They do want a president that seriously cares about America and that will make America more powerful, more influencial, wealthier etc etc etc. Of course nobody is going to say "I really don't care about America, I just want to be President and enact some changes I like" so people are looking for other stuff. And so they'll attached extra significance to things like Obama not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem or something.

I do think the technique is trickling down though. I think radio people use it in arguments. And so maybe indaviduals are also taking to it.

Agreed, yet another sleazy appearances tactic to stay off the facts and issues that has trickled down into the mainstream discourse from the likes of Karl Rove and the right in general.

Yeah, that's not a very politic thing to say, but it's true. The right benefits by dumbing down the rhetoric and derailing issues discussions off topic into the realm of feel-good or patriotism or posturing. Because when you stick right to the issues, the Republican Party is pretty much a failure. Most of its policies either fail to do what they are supposed to do, or do the diametric opposite of what they claim they're supposed to do. And a lot of that is intentional, in the case of any program that uses Federal money, which Republicans would like an excuse to sabotage and then attack as being a waste of money, and cut.

[sunnyside]

I don't agree on the whole failed politic thing. And I partially blame the "patriotic" deal on the Democrats at this point. Maybe the first time it was used they may have been blindsided. But by now they know its coming. Which is probably all the more reason people attach significance to the things they do.

However mostly I'm posting again to point out another thing on the whole "seems like I need to balance my ledger" bit on patriotism. It isn't quite like that, but say someone wanted to attribute some other mental adjective to themselves. Say "brave".

Ok so someone claims they're brave. It seems logical to inquire as to what things have they ever done that could be considered brave, and what things have they done that are not. Even a brave man may have retreated a few times, its just good military practice, and in real life sometimes being the bigger man and backing down from a fight is the right thing to do.

However if they retreat/back down a whole lot, and they can't point at anything they've done that is brave, one would question if that is an appropriate adjective.

Now it isn't unpatriotic to not just toe the line with US policy. However I think suspicious were raised because you can't seem to not citicise US policy in a discussion. Just looking at some of these top threads it doesn't seem to matter whether the origional topic is an annoucement by NASA, Iran jailing people for their religion, or pet commercials. Somehow you'll bring the subject to laying into Bush/Cheney etc.

Now it sounds like you may have some underlying patriotism.

But still there are a more than a handful of people who bring that level of criticism but have never done anything that could really be considered patriotic.

[Duskofdead]

I don't agree on the whole failed politic thing. And I partially blame the "patriotic" deal on the Democrats at this point. Maybe the first time it was used they may have been blindsided. But by now they know its coming. Which is probably all the more reason people attach significance to the things they do.

What, exactly has been a big success for the American people?

And patriotism as far as the political right means it is having American flag lapels on your jacket and repeating 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/119/11i81919191919/1/1191991 until your lips fall off. THe fact that it's being spoken by people who draft-dodged or used their rich fathers and connections to get multiple war deferments seems to elude most Republicans. So please, drop the crap about patriotism. If anyone has the right to talk about it, it's not the Right. Even when someone has actual vet experience, the elitist-corporatists running the Republican Party manage to turn it into a bad thing. They did it to Kerry and they did it to McCain. Somehow a really mediocre guy who ran a few companies into the ground in Texas and got a cush assignment to the "air national guard" (from which he went mysteriously AWOL) and never had to deploy to the war zone is more "patriotic" than someone who served and got purple hearts, injuries, or was even tortured (McCain.) So let's not pretend this is anything other than an artificial appearances/PR contest, and that any of it is really about actual patriotism, becuase the right is full of a bunch of liars who don't really care about anything except 1) not having to lift a finger to sacrifice anything for the country in terms of military service or overall national welfare 2) lowering taxes. Everything else is fluff.

And your whole little metaphor with the word "brave" fails because you said that if someone retreated/fell back several times, someone might question if they were brave. It's not unpatriotic to criticize America, it's a false premise to say that it is, and that's your only ground for trying to bring out the brush of "unpatriotic" or "America hating." You don't live in Stalinist Russia or Maoist China or some country where criticizing one's government is against the law or punishable treason, you live in the country which claims SUSPICION and DISTRUSTFULNESS of the government are requirements of a responsible citizenry. And the foundint fathers recommended an occasional overthrow to stop established elites and the gov't from becoming too entrenched and corrupt-- so hell if I was here talking about OVERTHROWING the gov't you'd still have no grounds to call me unpatriotic. So please, take a civics class, educate yourself about the Constitution, and then come back if you want to discuss who's patriotic. I don't care if I don't "appear" patriotic to you in the false lapel pin way that Republican politicians do. And if that is your rubric for patriotism you need a civics and Constitution refresher class.

[Duskofdead]

I don't mean to speak for Sunny, but I think a bit of his confusion over your stance stems from the fact that while you have often - and mostly justifiably - spoken out against America, I don't recall a time when you have spoken out FOR it.

This entire thread is me speaking out for it. Not for "America, no matter what it does" but for the America it can & should be. What you are saying here is, to me, like saying the parent should praise the child no matter how much of a drug dealing, violent criminal the child is behaving as. If the parent really cares, the parent is going to have some harsh words for the kid.

[sunnyside]

You seem to think that George W Bush defines all republicans over all time. Both McCain and Bush saw real war action. And certianly didn't have it cooshy. Also McCain, and I bet Bush, had criticised American policies.

The point you missed in the bravery example is that just retreating, even multiple times, does not make you a coward.

But if one retreats all the time and never does anything that could be considered brave they may well be perceived as a coward, probably accuratly.

Now you seem to be different than the sort of person I would call un-patriotic. However you also fall into the trap of only being a criciser. You never say anything positive about America, only negative. You don't talk about Obama or Hillary only about the negatives of Bush and you try to lump McCain in there to.


And accusations of being unpatriotic are used as weapons in politics. But that doesn't mean that patriotism is a made up thing. Nor does it mean that some people aren't actually unpatriotic.

[Mikey]

*snip Dusk's response to me*

Easy. I don't know what you think I called you or said about you, but I didn't. As far as a veiled implication that I'm a moderate-to-right-wing Republican for overtly and proudly displaying the symbols of my country, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I don't care if you choose to do the same or not. The fight I mentioned was in response to a particuler and active disrespect of our country - which is NOT the same thing as taking advantage of our right to criticize it.

Rochey - I can't make a comparison, having not yet had the chance to travel the world yet. However, the French do celebrate Bastille Day; I have personally taken part in celebrations of both Israel's and Uklraine's Independence Days, as well as being in Times Square when the parade began celebrating Kosovo's declaration of independence. All of these involve flags and other national symbols. My wife wears a pendant in the shape of a tryzub to celebrate her Ukrainian heritage. Why does this spirit seem to move Americans more than others? Who knows - there are of course a percentage of morons who only noticed the American flag after 9/11/01, as if suddenly spouting patriotic rhetoric would somehow go back in time and prevent what happened.

For the rest of us, I can theorize for me and extrapolate for many others the following: because of the nature of America, many of us have families that were actually in America for far shorter times than your family has been in Ireland (for example - you might have immigrated there two generations ago for all I know, but you get the idea.) My family on both sides for example were here as individuals in the early 1930's at the earliest. Given that, it is FAR easier for a familial memory to still be retained as to what a differenence was made in someone's life by immigrating, and thus a pro-American spirit.

[Duskofdead]

You seem to think that George W Bush defines all republicans over all time. Both McCain and Bush saw real war action. And certianly didn't have it cooshy. Also McCain, and I bet Bush, had criticised American policies.

If you re-read my post, I specifically separated McCain and Bush's histories. Because McCain's much more substantial service has been used as a weapon against him during Bush's rise. He's been called everything from crazy to a traitor, by his own party. That's why this b.s. about visible patriotism is exactly that.

Now you seem to be different than the sort of person I would call un-patriotic. However you also fall into the trap of only being a criciser. You never say anything positive about America, only negative. You don't talk about Obama or Hillary only about the negatives of Bush and you try to lump McCain in there to.

There aren't any threads up about Obama or Hillary that are receiving any active posts. The "who do you want to be President" thing has been off topic for pages and pages. And McCain is lumping himself in there, take it up with his campaign if you have a problem with that. Making feeble attempts to claim you wouldn't be a Bush third term while basically defending every policy of significance that Bush has implemented leaves a lot to be desired in the "he'll be way different" department.

And accusations of being unpatriotic are used as weapons in politics. But that doesn't mean that patriotism is a made up thing. Nor does it mean that some people aren't actually unpatriotic.

But the way that it is being used in politics, AND the way you are using it, are both made up, arbitrary, appearances-based, and meaningless. Someone who was on these forums 24/7 defending America vehemently still might be trading secrets to China for a couple million under the table or working for a military contractor that trains the UAE how to fight with state of the art weapons.

Of course there really are patriotic and unpatriotic people. My point that you are apparently missing is that you can't spot who is or who isn't by who's on here kissing America's butt, or making sure to bend over and say positive things about it or defend it at every turn. There is a list as long as your arm of politicians who think America's never wrong about anything and America should always come first, who back in the 80's were shaking hands with Saddam or involved in helping to arm him. And with that in mind here we are with you saying I haven't jumped through some fiery hoop in front of an audience to prove I'm not unpatriotic. I find it rather shallow and insulting, not just to me, but to the idea of patriotism as well.

[Duskofdead]

Easy. I don't know what you think I called you or said about you, but I didn't. As far as a veiled implication that I'm a moderate-to-right-wing Republican for overtly and proudly displaying the symbols of my country, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I don't care if you choose to do the same or not. The fight I mentioned was in response to a particuler and active disrespect of our country - which is NOT the same thing as taking advantage of our right to criticize it.

Well Mikey it has certainly happened already on several occasions that you apparently felt I was really ripping into you via misunderstanding... but I honestly in this case have no clue where you think I was implying any such thing about you. A couple of times I did quote things you said and ran off and typed a lot, but most of my responses have really been in the ongoing discussion between me and Sunny and I didn't have you personally in mind with much of what I said. As far as the part about "not seeing me defending America much", I have already stated in great detail how I feel about that and how I feel about that being used as a litmus to do some online gold purity test about whether someone's a patriot or not, take it or leave it. If it offended you it wasn't meant to but I still maintain it's a vapid and superficial hoop anyone can jump through, and doesn't mean anything.

[sunnyside]

There aren't any threads up about Obama or Hillary that are receiving any active posts.

You'll notice this, the Nasa thread, and the pet commercial threads aren't about US foreign policy or the president/vice president, but doesn't seem to stop you.

Of course there really are patriotic and unpatriotic people. My point that you are apparently missing is that you can't spot who is or who isn't by who's on here kissing America's butt, or making sure to bend over and say positive things about it or defend it at every turn. There is a list as long as your arm of politicians who think America's never wrong about anything and America should always come first,

See the thing is you've got your tunnel vision going again. If we get socialized health care I bet all these politicians you claim never criticize America will be having quite the bitch fest.

You're making up the "no criticism" criteria. They will all criticize when they feel the need to. They will all blast the other parties foreign policy. Even GWB has waggled his finger at Clinton's actions a number of times.

And no, you can't tell who is patriotic or not patriotic for sure from forum postings. However you can make educated guesses about things. For example I think Rochey doesn't like the Galaxy class.

Now patriotism is much more complex. And I get the feeling you probably aren't unpatriotic. But you might want to think about why you come off that way before you engage in a public debate of some kind.

[Duskofdead]

Now patriotism is much more complex. And I get the feeling you probably aren't unpatriotic. But you might want to think about why you come off that way before you engage in a public debate of some kind.

Could it simply be, like I stated earlier, that I do not particularly care if you are convinced I am or am not patriotic? You've set some goalposts I don't care to sit around kicking balls through. So you can walk off the green saying I lost the game, that's fine.

You'll notice this, the Nasa thread, and the pet commercial threads aren't about US foreign policy or the president/vice president, but doesn't seem to stop you.

As far as threads in the political area going off topic and somehow winding up on U.S. politics, big deal. Things go off topic here wildly all the time, or stop after 8 posts and die and drop down to the bottom of the page. If you specifically want my view on something "positive", then ask directly. I don't go into political forums to talk about how happy I am with the state of current affairs (because largely I'm not) or about how much I love America, which is largely irrelevant in terms of discussions about policy or political leadership.

And this thread, while not directly about US foreign policy, was bound to bring the subject up. Don't play coy about that now.