Principle harrases homosexual students

[Duskofdead]

And I'm pretty sure a handful of us have significant others or are married (I'm married and I'm pretty sure Mikey is too).

Even when you put the 13 year old male element aside, I think men just tend to take women less seriously in general. Especially online. I think if I were a woman, and if I were into discussing this stuff, I might be tempted to just leave my gender unannounced.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

I have known several women who generally pass themselves off as male online, they get harassed less this way. It's especially true in online gaming. They mention that they are a female once and endless geekboys drooling over them or demanding pics. Sure some women like that attention but most don't.

I can understand that. I've even seen it happen; some people (usually guys) need to learn manners.

Usually they don't even need to try very hard... if they just don't put smilies or a quote in pink text for their signature, people generally just assume everyone is male online until proven otherwise.

Acting horny also helps people think you're a guy.

[sunnyside]

Acting horny also helps people think you're a guy.

And if you act really horny they may think you're a Chakat.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Acting horny also helps people think you're a guy.

And if you act really horny they may think you're a Chakat.

Now you're catching on

[Tsukiyumi]

Acting horny also helps people think you're a guy.

And if you act really horny they may think you're a Chakat.

Now you're catching on

[Teaos]

I tend to assume everyone is a guy online. 90% of the time I'd be right. The other 10% its an FBI agent pretending to be a 12 year old girl.

[Jim]

Yes I am white and straight so I don't recieve the racism that minorities do.

Actually you do, and more than you realize... Try getting a college loan. There are tons of "special" loans for minorities but none for the straight white male. Go for a job but get passed over even if you are more qualified for the duties simply because the company will "look better" with a more diverse staff, or because of some imposed quota that needs filled.

Granted, the old lady walking down the street might not clutch her handbag tighter when a white male walks past.... but that doesn't mean the straight white male doesn't get negative treatment based on what he is.

[Duskofdead]

Actually you do, and more than you realize... Try getting a college loan.

That's economic discrimination, not racial. If your sole grounds for needing money is being poor then there are grants that have nothing to do with race whatsoever which you can seek out from the government. Though I agree this is insufficient and it's much harder to try to get a grant through the Federal government than through a smaller non profit agency or whatever, that's not proof that there is organized racism against white people on anything resembling the scale it exists the other way around. Let's face it, it's not like you can look at the numbers at colleges and put up a serious argument that white people are having a terribly hard time getting into college if they really want to go.

You know what the best way to get into an expensive or Ivy League private school is? Have a rich white dad who went. That's the #1 ticket in. There are few/no special organizations selectively targetting just white kids to help them get into college because short of artificial means to correct it, college already functionally does that (gets white kids in, and few others.)

There are tons of "special" loans for minorities but none for the straight white male. Go for a job but get passed over even if you are more qualified for the duties simply because the company will "look better" with a more diverse staff, or because of some imposed quota that needs filled.

Hello, this isn't 1991. Quotas have been illegal for ages. And if you think that redlining and the shepherding of minority homebuyers away from nicer white areas doesn't still happen, you are sadly misinformed. If you didn't have decades of intentional and systematic refusal of home loans to minorities if they were trying to buy in a place that "wasn't for them" then you wouldn't have needed special organizations to watchdog or give out loans to make sure that blacks and others weren't falling through the cracks and never being allowed to move out of inner cities or rural areas.

Granted, the old lady walking down the street might not clutch her handbag tighter when a white male walks past.... but that doesn't mean the straight white male doesn't get negative treatment based on what he is.

You can certainly dig up cases of white men feeling or reporting that they have been treated badly by other groups because of their race. But you look at actual studies and these cases get drowned out in a rather stark overall trend in America where if you are not white, you experience discrimination (or perceive that you do) many times throughout your life in the United States, and if you are white, you rarely or never do. However I find that digging up one instance of white kid at black school who got teased and called the white kid and it made him sad is often the cop out of closet racists (or Republicans, which for the purpose of this discussion is pretty much the same thing) to put up a false argument that racism either doesn't exist, or exists only against whites by non-whites, or exists so equally all around that there is no validity whatsoever in asserting that racism exists as a problem for minorities. Which certainly seems to be what you are doing.

You are holding up programs designed and created in response to decades or even centuries of formal, institutionalized racism which created social and financial levels of inequality bound to race which would take ages to ever balance out "through pure merit alone", if it ever would at all, and using those programs as "evidence" white people face racism in our society. Do you realize how backwards this thinking is? You are like someone yelling that the doctors don't care about your health because they ran to the guy with the two broken legs (incidentally that your grandfather broke, with a sledgehammer) before they run to you.

[Jim]

That's economic discrimination, not racial. If your sole grounds for needing money is being poor then there are grants that have nothing to do with race whatsoever which you can seek out from the government.

Honestly, I should premise that a bit. I have been out of college for quite some time so I have no idea what the current grant structure is. All I know (knew) was that when I went into college back in 91 there was a HUGE list of grants I could apply for... IF I fit any of a wide varity of minority cryteria. If I was a lesbian black asian jewish woman with a handicap I would have been SET! As I was a white male... they might as well just have jaughed while pointing to the door.

You know what the best way to get into an expensive or Ivy League private school is? Have a rich white dad who went. That's the #1 ticket in. There are few/no special organizations selectively targetting just white kids to help them get into college because short of artificial means to correct it, college already functionally does that (gets white kids in, and few others.)

Boy, that's a bunch of horse crap. ... unless one is so delusional that one thinks that white = rich... which is basically what you are saying in that paragraph.

Hello, this isn't 1991. Quotas have been illegal for ages.

Maybe on paper, but not in real life. THere are people here that do whatever the heck they want because they KNOW they CAN NOT get fired because they fill the diversity policy.

And if you think that redlining and the shepherding of minority homebuyers away from nicer white areas doesn't still happen, you are sadly misinformed. If you didn't have decades of intentional and systematic refusal of home loans to minorities if they were trying to buy in a place that "wasn't for them" then you wouldn't have needed special organizations to watchdog or give out loans to make sure that blacks and others weren't falling through the cracks and never being allowed to move out of inner cities or rural areas.

That's a bunch of horse poo too because not only are minotities with money moving wherevery they want, but even the Section 8 housing (all races) is moving into new high price housing plans. $300K condo plan have to set asside a % of their units for low-income families.

You are holding up programs designed and created in response to decades or even centuries of formal, institutionalized racism which created social and financial levels of inequality bound to race which would take ages to ever balance out "through pure merit alone", if it ever would at all, and using those programs as "evidence" white people face racism in our society. Do you realize how backwards this thinking is? You are like someone yelling that the doctors don't care about your health because they ran to the guy with the two broken legs (incidentally that your grandfather broke, with a sledgehammer) before they run to you.

MY God I so wish I had read the entire post before responding. The pure IDOCY of that last sentence means that I am out of this pathetic thread. However, the fact that you felt the need to mention that MY grandfather broke someones legs with a sledge I would gather because he was white and the time frame shows how idiotic and hypocritical the minority point is in this debate. I guess it is okay for a minority to racially profile a white guy right? So what do you want? A century or two of complete reversal of the last century or two? Will that satidsfy your hypocritical pos opinion? My grandfather... two guess as to what you can go do...

I'll cue the violin to play for you and all they idiots that think that "I" owe them something because apparently my grandfather did something 50 years ago...

My grandfather...

I am out. Me and gramps gotta go find some minorities to beat with sledge hammers apparently.

[Duskofdead]

Honestly, I should premise that a bit. I have been out of college for quite some time so I have no idea what the current grant structure is. All I know (knew) was that when I went into college back in 91 there was a HUGE list of grants I could apply for... IF I fit any of a wide varity of minority cryteria. If I was a lesbian black asian jewish woman with a handicap I would have been SET! As I was a white male... they might as well just have jaughed while pointing to the door.

A lot of those are put forward by specific groups who go around and advertise and do outreach. The Federal government doesn't exactly put a cool flier on your desk in between classes letting you know the ways to apply for money... but as almost anyone "in the business" of guidance counseling or college grants/loans will tell you... the money is THERE for someone who wants it. Of course, if you go to a nice school in a nice neighborhood that has the resources and such to have college counseling and academic guidance counselors and such whose business it is to KNOW these avenues and direct tyou to them, your chance of going to college as a kid who can't afford it increases, naturally. And of course thusly equipped schools tend to be in middle to upper middle class white areas.

Boy, that's a bunch of horse crap. ... unless one is so delusional that one thinks that white = rich... which is basically what you are saying in that paragraph.

You are entitled to your opinion that anything is horse crap, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Go do a net search on "Legacy Program." And no, I never said white = rich, certainly not all white people are rich. But when you imply that whites are every bit as "discriminated against" because there isn't a plethora of specifically white-targetted programs to get white kids into college, then naturally the question comes to mind: what about the current college ratios and graduation rates between races makes you think whites are having "just as hard a time" getting in as everyone else? Nothing. You're making up a persecution complex as you go along, because you don't want to own up to any sort of privilege whatsoever that white people may ever receive in this society. You'd rather play upon phantom menaces of minorities getting everything for free at white expense.

That's a bunch of horse poo too because not only are minotities with money moving wherevery they want, but even the Section 8 housing (all races) is moving into new high price housing plans. $300K condo plan have to set asside a % of their units for low-income families.

Low-income.... not non-white. So where exactly are you pointing out that minorities have some leg up over whites here? Or are you admiting that low-income usually means non-white?

MY God I so wish I had read the entire post before responding. The pure IDOCY of that last sentence means that I am out of this pathetic thread. However, the fact that you felt the need to mention that MY grandfather broke someones legs with a sledge I would gather because he was white and the time frame shows how idiotic and hypocritical the minority point is in this debate. I guess it is okay for a minority to racially profile a white guy right? So what do you want? A century or two of complete reversal of the last century or two? Will that satidsfy your hypocritical pos opinion? My grandfather... two guess as to what you can go do...

I'll cue the violin to play for you and all they idiots that think that "I" owe them something because apparently my grandfather did something 50 years ago...

Good, get out. You are not putting forward anything that thousands of other white zero-sum thinkers in the U.S. haven't already in an attempt to discredit any effort to make some corrective measures in terms of racial inequality in the U.S. If you think you stumbled upon something original or enlightening with this "white people have it just as bad, I get less than minorities" argument (which somehow fails to explain the fact that privilege, status, wealth and opportunity in this country have always and continue to be heavily associated with race and ethnicity) then you were mistaken.

[Mikey]

I was declined entry to Princeton University - against the specific invitation form the Dean of Engineering - because, as I was told off the record later, Princeton had enough "UMC white males" on campus. My cousin was told a similar story at Harvard (she ended up at Stanford and then got her JD from Harvard.) Quotas may be technically illegal, but they're very real in practice. I'd be pilloried for asking publicly about the "United White College Fund," but the United Negro College Fund advertises everywhere.

[Duskofdead]

I was declined entry to Princeton University - against the specific invitation form the Dean of Engineering - because, as I was told off the record later, Princeton had enough "UMC white males" on campus. My cousin was told a similar story at Harvard (she ended up at Stanford and then got her JD from Harvard.) Quotas may be technically illegal, but they're very real in practice. I'd be pilloried for asking publicly about the "United White College Fund," but the United Negro College Fund advertises everywhere.

None of those schools have any problem more than filling the number of students they're able to accomodate each year. I find it highly suspect that the only reason you'd be cut would be due to an unofficial racial quota system working against whites. Could the guy have been sparing your feelings?

On paper, I more than qualified for the University of Pennsylvania. But I was also very honest on the app about how much financial aid I would need in order to attend. I was rejected and the "reason" they gave me was a bunch of fluff about how they receive so many qualified applicants per year and can only accept so many into the fall freshmen class, etc. etc. Stanford gave me a similar response despite the fact that I was well above the admittance bar in terms of GPA and curricular qualifications. (Actually in Stanford's case they sent me a letter saying that they had such a large excess of 4.0 GPA applicants (I believe mine was 4.6 weighted) that they had to start making distinctions based upon national or international recognition (read: kid designing a new anti-bacterial agent as a science project, or celebrity.) Either that I could just assume that while I more than qualified, there was another kid nearly as qualified from a 300,000+/year family income who didn't mark that they'd need substantial financial aid on the application.

At any rate... whenever this topic comes up, the very first thing to roll off people's lips is college scholarship foundations, and the discussion usually gets bogged there and ends there without moving onto any broader picture or other issues. If the first, best and last argument Americans have that white people face discrimination is that there are scholarship programs to help minority groups who routinely constitute 1-9% of college acceptees, often well below their proportion of local population, then the situation for whites in America is still quite good. In an ideal world we'd all be working with the same opportunities and same backgrounds, education would be of standard and high quality, and money and a family's financial sitution would not even enter into the equation of whether or not a kid can go to college at all, and if they can, which ones they are able to attend. A pure merit system sounds great but when you have groups within the U.S. generationally trapped in the worst neighborhoods with the worst services, worst job opportunities, worse unemployment rates, worst poverty rates, worst local schools, moving to a "pure merit" system (as demonstrated in our past) basically means whites will go, very few others will, and your level of privilege will directly influence how good of a school you are able to get into.

Affirmative action is a bad solution to a bad problem. But the argument is kept stymied entirely at the point of "should there be any such system whatsoever", and any sort of special promotion of the underprivileged is a system which has to fight for survival of any sort. If you ask virtually anyone who works or studies in issues of social justice or ethnic studies, all of them say they want economic status heavily inserted into systems-- i.e. poor whites should get just as much of a boost as say a poor Latino. But we don't have the luxury of tweaking these systems to make them better when all resources, politically and legally speaking, go into simply fighting not to have ANY program shut down whatsoever at the hands of essentially rich white conservatives whose kids exclusively attend private schools and go on to positions in the best universities, regardless of merit. (George W Bush going to Yale, anyone? Think he earned his way in through academic prowess?) This fight is largely being lost as AA has been almost wholly de-implemented across the country, even here in the "liberal capital" California school systems. The sad part is, Appalachain whites or whites from broken down, formerly union job depressed semi-rural communities are not going to be any better off whatsoever with AA gone, they'll just get the satisfaction of not having an angry, wriggling vindictive perception in their heads that minorities are being handed all sorts of things they don't have.

[Mikey]

Of course he was trying to spare my feelings. The guy who told me was the same man who said that I have his personal invitation to attend his department. The point remains, though, that I was declined even though I had better qualifications all around than some people who were accepted - people who "coinicidentally" came from more, uh, exotic ethnic backgrounds.

[Duskofdead]

Of course he was trying to spare my feelings. The guy who told me was the same man who said that I have his personal invitation to attend his department. The point remains, though, that I was declined even though I had better qualifications all around than some people who were accepted - people who "coinicidentally" came from more, uh, exotic ethnic backgrounds.

That happens all the time, Mikey. Like I said, in an ideal world it would be straight merit, and straight merit would be a fair criteria because we'd all come from equal quality education backgrounds, and it owuldn't be a matter of what school we can afford, or if we can afford college at all. Race is not the only factor-- if you need aid, that's a factor too. I am sure out of the private universities I applied to, some kids with an "inferior" academic resume got in because they didn't require any aid from the school.

What would happen if the 30,000 best applicants all marked that they needed help with 80% of their school costs? The school can't afford that, so they take some portion of the best students and the rest they fill in with students who can pay all the costs themselves. If you wanted to raise the issue of how it's questionable to have a for-profit private run school system in the U.S. I'm totally on board but that's a little beside the point right now.

And, let's not forget the people who get in who clearly don't deserve to be there. At Princeton I doubt very much you could point a finger in any direction without hitting a rich person, regardless of whether that student was an A or C student in high school. But I imagine you have to crane your neck to find students of certain races.

Making a long story short: There's not enough room at the most competitive universities for everyone who wants to get in, and even if there was room to stretch and accomodate many more people, they would just start to discriminate based on who could pay and who couldn't. Everyone who went to college probably has a story about how they didn't get into this place or that place that was their first pick. I raise my eyebrow a bit when people a little latently bitter about not getting in somewhere they wanted to go immediately scapegoat minorities as if some D average black guy from a family who makes 19,000 a year is given preference over you in any instance where you didn't get in. It's equally as plausible (and in the case of a school like Princeton, much MORE plausible) that someone whose dad donated a quarter mil to the school got in with his 2.8 GPA.

At any rate, if you came from a middle class family, you went to a relatively decent school which prepared you to be accepted into a major university, then my guess is you got in somewhere, if not at Princeton. And that right there gives you a huge leg up in life over the sort of people these programs are at their core intended to help. I'd prefer to have educational reform from the ground up but I don't exactly see too many people besides idealists and educators on board about that. Certainly the American people in general don't want to PAY for it, because taxes come from Satan and really, who CARES what those inner city kids use for desks or how many decades old their textbooks are right?

[Tsukiyumi]

...or how many decades old their textbooks are right?

I remember my high school books were from the early seventies.