The physical extent of the Romulan Star Empire TNG era

[Moose]

I'd always wondered this, but one thing which still puzzles me about both the RSE and the KE is that we've seen they both have at least one 'subject Race' the Remans and the Kriosians. In 'Friday's Child' Kirk states that the Klingon Empire treats most of their subjects as nigh on slaves, but we don't see that with the Kriosians, but we do with the Romulans in the way they treat the Remans... so regardless of the physical size surely it would make more sense that the Romulans in the RSE are less numerous than the Klingons in their Empire (as when the Kriosians rebel they don't take control of the Empire, but when the Remans rebel... well... we've all seen Nemesis.)

(I hope that makes sense... though I may well have rambled a bit )

[Teaos]

Their subject races probably don't have great lives but not horribal. But slaves are never as profitable as free people working because they can.

[Granitehewer]

I wouldn't regard subject races as the litmus test for empire size or influence,there are too many other variables involved, remember that Krios is on the federation border but Remus is twinned with Romulus, also high ranking members of the romulan senate and military actively collaborated with Shinzon and his coup....

[Granitehewer]

ps moose, you made really interesting points, not a ramble at all

Lastly i think that cultural attitudes towards slaves, slave-master power dynamics, number of slave races and strategic value of slave-populated worlds may be more related to culture than military strength.
Also remember regarding the Reman coup,that the remans had been used as shock troops in the dominion wars, so unlike what we know of the kriosians, the remans would have had military training.
ps nemesis so need spock or sela, or just a mention!

[Moose]

Why thank you... I try. Now (here's the opening of Pandora's Box)... most important thing anyone needs to know about me... I'm a Classicist (or at least a Classicist in training).

Hence: My analogies are with the Spartans and Athenians. The Athenians had a larger 'Empire' because their subjects were semi-autonomous... the Athenians just got all the benefits. The Spartans had a smaller one, but definitely had the military prowess (smaller forces, but more professional) and treated their subjects, vassals and even allies as almost slaves. The odd thing is that the Romulan treatment of their subjects seems to be closer to the Spartan model (as a Helot revolt by the Spartans basically overthrew the Spartan Hegemony... the Thebans just took the credit) and the results seem much closer to that...

The Klingons on the other hand bare much more comparison to the Athenian model; higher class citizens are the more 'important' troops (in the Klingon model being the Warrior caste and the ones controlling almost all the Empire's ships) while lower class citizens might just crew them. Their treatment of subjects also seems closer to the Athenian model (they were ruthless against the Kriosian rebels just as the Athenians were when the Euboans didn't play ball). That's the way I've always looked at both... which doesn't of course imply that one is necessarily bigger than the other, but the larger an empire is under the Spartan model the more potentially unstable it is... which also seems right given the nature of Romulan politics which we have thus far seen.

Hope that doesn't bore everyone

[Monroe]

Interesting analogy.
I think its safe to say that originally the Romulans were modeled after the Romans and the Klingons modeled after the USSR (because of political issues of the day).

So perhaps the Romulans have auxillaries that are the other species in their Empire that we just don't see too often. Perhaps they're ground forces and police forces for the most part. Where as real Romans and Romulans do the bulk of the warfare.

And Klingons like the USSR have many subjucated races in their domain but they aren't slave races they're second class citizens. That's why if war ever happened between the US and USSR in the 60s you'd have the Federation force of freedom (dispite its clearly socialist undertones in Star Trek) vs the Klingons who if need be could call their lesser races to fight as well just like the Russians could demand its client states to fight.

That's my theory on it.

[Granitehewer]

lol moose,anyone who can fit a reference to Leuctra or the Messenians ,in a star trek post deserves double kudos Although try squeezing in Pylos, for more bonus points :-p
Seriously though,very good points, its easy to forget that empire size alone,isn't necessarily an advantage if the bureaucratic structures and administration are unstable or rigidly adhere to an inflexible template.
Personally i don't reckon on the Klingons using satellite troops or auxiliaries like the soviets used the Warsaw pact divisions, due to the somewhat haughty distain of the empire for non-klingons.
Would be interesting to learn, whether the cardassians, klingons or romulans, enfranchised or empowered any of their subject peoples and to what extent.

[Moose]

Ahhh... Leuctra... my hero Epaminondas' greatest victory. I'm more of a fan of Mantineia actually just because if the sheer 'fate' aspect related to it... anyhow back to the topic.

I have to agree that I can't see the Klingons letting any of their 'puny subjects' do the warrior's work...

The Romulans on the other hand... obviously they do use Remans in combat and so I would assume that if a subject species had a particular forte they'd use that to best effect.

We are slightly drifting off topic however... given that this was meant to be a discussion of the size... so if we want to discuss the demographic and cultural hierarchy of the other Trek civilisations maybe we should start a new topic?

[Granitehewer]

Good point, i am tangent man,at the best of times lol

[robjkay]

Hi everyone.
I'm curious to how people, perceive the romulan star empire in terms of dimensions, i have the non-cannon starcharts book which shows the romulan domain, to be considerably smaller than both the federation and Klingon empire, yet an apparent off the cuff comment from Ronald Moore(i can't cite the source yet, as lost the bit of paper it was hastily scribbled on,lol) was that the romulan star empire was supposed to be bigger than the klingon empire yet smaller than the federation.
Clearly there doesn't seem to be a clear cannonical statement on the matter, and fan opinion seems to vary wildly, for example see the huge area designated as Romulan space on the Voyager Elite Force map... so was just wondering what people thought
Thanks for reading the post, hope everyone is ok
pete

I do not see the Romulans Empire being bigger then the Klingons or the Federation. I would think the Federation being the bigger of the three due to there constant exploration and allways adding new planets and races to the Federation in a peaceful manner.

The Romulans are pretty much surrounded by the races, Klingons, Cardassian, Federation, Breen, to where I would think the only way to expand would be to invade one of the races or expand out from there rear where the Klingon & Cardassion would be doing also, so it I would think it would not be that much expansion. Unlike the Federation there is really nothing in the way for the to expand they have already expnaded to a point beyond the races to where they have encircled them like the Gorn, Tholians, Breen and so on!

Also as far as the Romulans, I thought it was until recently like 2 to 3 hundred years that the Romulans aquired advanced warp technology to expand and go beyond there system. The Romulans I thought they became a true power and became more technological advanced when the Klingon/Romulans treaty became about for short period. Where they shared ships, weapons for Clocking Tech.