Machine gun and Torch in one handy package.

Post by **Tsukiyumi** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:06 am

If the US hadn't gotten involved, it would've been only a matter of time before Germany figured out a way to invade the isles. Their atomic bomb program was only a few months, or years behind America's, and the UK would've been screwed without material aid from America anyways. Let's just say we all did our part, and without all the Allies, the war would've gone very differently. You certainly can't downplay our role.

Besides, I've always considered the UK to be somewhat seperate from Europe anyways. You guys did your part, quite well.

Post by **Mikey** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:35 am

What a diplomat you are, Tsukiyumi.

Post by **Tsukiyumi** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:40 am

sunnyside · Post by **sunnyside** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:56 am

I generally like the statement.

"Britain provided the time, America provided the money, Russia provided the blood"

Personally my take is that if the US hadn't gotten involved Hitler might have been defeated by the Russian winter. But the Russians wouldn't have even a vauge chance of going to Berlin on their own.

Germany probably would have kept trading bombs with Britain and consolidating it's European and African holdings. Who knows they might have even tried to get peace in order to buy more time to consolidate, recover and build up.

Regardless if all three countries hadn't gotten involved there'd be a whole lot less Jews today.

Post by **Mikey** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:05 am

We're like termites... leave just a couple and we repopulate in no time.

Seriously, that should probably read, "...Jews, and Catholics, and Orthodox Christians, and certain Slavic groups, and..."

sunnyside · Post by **sunnyside** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:41 am

..gypsies, and so on yeah.

So it's good that we all got in on it. You Brits and the Ruskies were kinda Lazy when it came to helping taking out Japan though.

And after sufficiant time to build up again who knows what Germany might have been able to pull. The Russian winter is horrible. But eventually spring comes.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:28 pm

You Brits and the Ruskies were kinda Lazy when it came to helping taking out Japan though.

I think they were just repaying the favour.

WWII is a facinating period of time. Any number of minor differences could have changed history drasticaly. Hitler almost got blown up by his own men, what if that had succeded? What if they hadn't invaded the USSR? What if they hadn't allied with the Japanese against the US? What if Ireland had gone through with it's threat to ally with the Nazis? What if Hitler just told Mussolini to take a hike, and stop wasting his troops in Africa and Greece? What if Pearl Harbour had succeeded in anhialating the US carrier fleet?

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:25 pm

sunnyside wrote:You Brits and the Ruskies were kinda Lazy when it came to helping taking out Japan though.

We were busy clearing the Japanese out of Burma, and as for Russia have you ever heard of Operation August Storm?

Post by **Mikey** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:22 am

Captain Seafort wrote:We were busy clearing the Japanese out of Burma

I am SURE that you don't intend this to mean that you Brits were the sole allied power involved in fighting the Japanese in Burma, although that's how it reads... right?

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:27 pm

Mikey wrote:I am SURE that you don't intend this to mean that you Brits were the sole allied power involved in fighting the Japanese in Burma, although that's how it reads... right?

The main fighting force in Burma - the Fourteenth Army - was at least nominally British. Of course, there were plenty of US and Chinese forces involved as well, and the bulk of the Fourteenth Army was Indian. I was simply responding to sunny's comment about British and Russian involvement in the Pacific War.

Post by **Mikey** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:34 pm

OK then.

Post by **Mikey** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:37 pm

OK then.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:43 pm

England was slowly but surely being weakened by Germany. Had Hitler kept his eyes on England then he may have had a chance to take over. The US was still in bad shape at the start of the war. Germany couldn't hope to win a war against the US and knew it. Russia was a power house with troops but lacked the overall ability to win a war solo. I have never thought of England as giving the 'time' as it were but the location. If the US was to counter the war then the US needed a base of operations. By the Time the US got involved, Germany was tired, Russia united and England was a line in the sand that NO ONE could cross. Where the war in the Pacific had only one possible outcome, Europe was another matter. Like always, the US pulled out the Hail Mary plan which seems to be the number one plan in a one play playbook. We were late to the party but when we got there we made sure everyone knew it. Once the US began to build up in the UK the war was over. Germany was now facing the two most powerful nations on earth (US and Russia) crushing in from all directions. Germany couldn't match US production, British pride/determination and Russian numbers. It was a lost war.

As to the carriers at Pearl Harbor. Even if Japan had taken out the carriers or better yet, taken over Hawaii. The war would have ended the same way. The difference would have been when it ended as no doubt having to retake the mid-Pacific would have added one or two years to the time tables.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:06 pm

Deepcrush wrote:England was slowly but surely being weakened by Germany. Had Hitler kept his eyes on England then he may have had a chance to take over.

No he couldn't - submarine warfare might have ultimately reduced Britain to starvation, but the entire concept of Sealion was a non-starter.

The US was still in bad shape at the start of the war. Germany couldn't hope to win a war against the US and knew it.

Unfortunately they didn't, at least not at the political level - Hitler considered the US to be a mongrel nation, and therefore incapable of having any significant effect on a war between the pure Aryan nations of Britain and Germany.

Once the US began to build up in the UK the war was over. Germany was now facing the two most powerful nations on earth (US and Russia) crushing in from all directions.

The question of who would win the war was probably decided in front of Moscow, and certainly by Stalingrad. All D-Day did was speed up the process, and ensured that control of the continent was split between the western allies and Russia, rather than being dominated by the latter.

As to the carriers at Pearl Harbor. Even if Japan had taken out the carriers or better yet, taken over Hawaii. The war would have ended the same way. The difference would have been when it ended as no doubt having to retake the mid-Pacific would have added one or two years to the time tables.

It would probably had a greater effect on the outcome of the European War than on the Pacific, particularly if Hawaii had been taken. US forces that historically went to Europe would have been concentrated on the west coast, an landing craft that, even historically were in short supply, would have also been sent to the Pacific. Ultimately, either the Red Army would have defeated the Wehrmacht single-handedly, or Berlin and various other German cities would have disappeared under mushroom clouds.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:06 pm

With regards to the Third Reich V Britain, the moment the Luftwaffe lost air superiority, any chance of invading England went down the drain.