Good Bad Ugly: DS9

[Captain Seafort]

They just fought of an invader an now Federation comes in and fortifys their system. They would beleve them. And even without the upgrade an antifederation goverment won.

So what if SF would make a military upgrade to the station the Circle would probaply be even more powerfull.

They had close relations with the goverment and still got kicked of.

Which part of "they need to cooperate closely with the Bajorans" did you miss. The fact that delicate local politics are involved does not change the fact that a strong defensive position is needed at the AQ end of the wormhole in case of an attack from the GQ.

And your argumen is that an imagionery enemy would atack. where there was no threat for two years. Again you are presenting an image of conquest.

Waiting until an attacker appears on your doorstep is an exceptionally poor defensive strategy. If the Dominion, or some other GQ power, had attacked through the wormhole in season 1 the station would have been in a poor state to defend itself and Bajor, and a beachead would have been established in the Alpha Quadrent. The fact that this did not happend is in no way a vindication of the Federation's lack of preparation.

[mlsnoopy]

Which part of "they need to cooperate closely with the Bajorans" did you miss

They cooperated closely with Bajorans and what happened they were kicked of the station.

The fact that delicate local politics are involved does not change the fact that a strong defensive position is needed at the AQ end of the wormhole in case of an attack from the GQ.

Where you have no jurustiction and you are giving an image of conquest.

[/quote]Waiting until an attacker appears on your doorstep is an exceptionally poor defensive strategy.

Their were the Cardasians with whom the Federation just had a war and the border should have been fortified.

If the Dominion, or some other GQ power, had attacked through the wormhole in season 1 the station would have been in a poor state to defend itself and Bajor, and a beachead would have been established in the Alpha Quadrent.

And when DS9 was fully upgraded it was easaly conquered by the Dominin. So if a full scale attack would come in seasone 1 there would also be no fleet to conter the attack. And there would be the problem of polaron beams. So in S1 the federation is defeted even with or without the upgrades.

[Captain Seafort]

They cooperated closely with Bajorans and what happened they were kicked of the station.

You'll always have a few troublemakers. The problem was that said troublemakers had infiltrated the provisional government. The Bajoran people as a whole were cautious, but not outright anti-Fed. With the exception of Jaro's adminsitration, the provisional government was generally pro-Fed.

Where you have no jurustiction and you are giving an image of conquest.

If you do it wrong. If you do it right you can present yourselves as genuinely concerned for the safety of the Bajoran people.

Their were the Cardasians with whom the Federation just had a war and the border should have been fortified.

I'm not talking about the border - I'm talking about the wormhole itself. It's a lot more difficult to destroy a bridgehead than it is to prevent the formation of one.

And when DS9 was fully upgraded it was easaly conquered by the Dominin.

Wrong. It held off several attacks - long enough for the Defiant to continue laying the minefield, and was specifically described by Weyoun as being a costly victory for the Dominion.

So if a full scale attack would come in seasone 1 there would also be no fleet to conter the attack. And there would be the problem of polaron beams. So in S1 the federation is defeted even with or without the upgrades.

So, because the Dominion ships were much more dangerous individually earlier on, no attempt should be made to defend against them. Don't forget that we're talking about refitting the station before the Dominion was encounter - whcih means that Starfleet would have no knowledge of the Dominion's technical advantages. The principle is to defend the Bajoran system against any attack that may come from the GQ, not the specific threat that developed from the Dominion.

[mlsnoopy]

You'll always have a few troublemakers. The problem was that said troublemakers had infiltrated the provisional government. The Bajoran people as a whole were cautious, but not outright anti-Fed. With the exception of Jaro's adminsitration, the provisional government was generally pro-Fed.

But with a massive miltary upgrade you would send a massege of conquest and the goverment would be less pro-Fed

If you do it wrong. If you do it right you can present yourselves as genuinely concerned for the safety of the Bajoran people.

And send a messege of conquest.

I'm not talking about the border - I'm talking about the wormhole itself. It's a lot more difficult to destroy a bridgehead than it is to prevent the formation of one.

With or without the station the bridgehead would be formed.

The principle is to defend the Bajoran system against any attack that may come from the GQ

And for 2 years there was no threat from the GQ. You are upgrading the station agains an imaginery enemy and are again sending a messege of conquest.

[Captain Seafort]

But with a massive miltary upgrade you would send a massege of conquest and the goverment would be less pro-Fed.

You seem obsessed that the only possible interpretation of the reinforcement of DS9's defences is conquest. You have repeatedly ignored any suggestion that the Bajorans may also see it as a reassuring sign of the Feds interest in defending their system. Yes, some elements will probably see it in the same lightas the Cardassian's original construction of the station. Some, however, are more likely to see it as a sign of the Federation's willingness to invest in Bajor, and to stand and fight to defend the system. Given that the provisional government spcifically invited the Federation in after the Cardassian withdrawal, it's likely they would fall into the latter category, especially after the discovery of the wormhole.

With or without the station the bridgehead would be formed.

Proof? Not just WRT the Dominion, but any potential threat from the Gamma Quadrent. I repeat: the fact that the Dominion would probably still be able to overwhelm the stations defences, particularly before their polaron weaponry was countered, is not an argument against beefing up the station's defences.

And for 2 years there was no threat from the GQ. You are upgrading the station agains an imaginery enemy

No, I'm upgrading the station against a potential enemy. When the wormhole was discovered the Feds had no idea what was on the other side. Assuming that the clapped-out pile of junk they'd just taken over would be sufficient to hold off whatever threats that might come through the wormhole was an act of monumental stupidity.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

And for 2 years there was no threat from the GQ. You are upgrading the station agains an imaginery enemy

No, I'm upgrading the station against a potential enemy. When the wormhole was discovered the Feds had no idea what was on the other side. Assuming that the clapped-out pile of junk they'd just taken over would be sufficient to hold off whatever threats that might come through the wormhole was an act of monumental stupidity.

It would take a while before they could get the station fully repaired, and to figure out everything before they could think about making it operational.

[Captain Seafort]

It would take a while before they could get the station fully repaired, and to figure out everything before they could think about making it operational.

True. However, that plan would still involve planning the station's refit into a more capable defensive platform as a matter of course, rather than waiting until a serious threat emerged before waking up to the fact that the wormhole was a site of vital strategic importance. Depending on the relative ease and effectiveness of a refit versus a new build, it may have been a better idea to build an entirely new station, and then scrap DS9. However, judging by the effectiveness of the refitted station's weapons against the Klingon fleet in "Way of the Warrior" and the Dominion fleet in "Call to Arms", it appears that the refit was the better use of resources.

[mlsnoopy]

You seem obsessed that the only possible interpretation of the reinforcement of DS9's defences is conquest.

They just fought off a opresive species and you are telling me that whwn another galactic power came in, despite having good reputation, and started puting massive firepower on thire station as a sign of conquest.
Remeber how they reacted when Romulans put torpedos on the moon.

Yes, some elements will probably see it in the same lightas the Cardassian's original construction of the station. Some, however, are more likely to see it as a sign of the Federation's willingness to invest in Bajor, and to stand and fight to defend the system. Given that the provisional government spcifically invited the Federation in after the Cardassian withdrawal, it's likely they would fall into the latter category, especially after the discovery of the wormhole.

But you keep forgeting that a anti-fed goverment took control of Bajor, and by having an aponent which you can compare to their former opresors his posision becomes stronger. By putting more weapons on the station you are basicly alienating the people and givin anti-fed parties fuel to spred.

No, I'm upgrading the station against a potential enemy.

Again i ask you what potencial enemy the scans have show that thir are no major powers in the vicinity of the wormhole and that the teritory is not claimed by anyone. So by upgrading it agains an imaginery enemy you are again making the position of the federation weaker.

Assuming that the clapped-out pile of junk they'd just taken over would be sufficient to hold off whatever threats that might come through the wormhole was an act of monumental stupidity.

When the station was repaired and fitted with only the standatrt weapons it would be able to hold its own agains a ship or two.

[Captain Seafort]

They just fought off a opresive species and you are telling me that whwn another galactic power came in, despite having good reputation, and started puting massive firepower on thire station as a sign of conquest.
Remeber how they reacted when Romulans put torpedos on the moon.

A power they invited in. A strong Bajoran presence on the station (as already existed in form of Kira's militia detachment) and outsourcing the refit contracts to Bajor wherever possible would go a long way to earning their trust.

But you keep forgeting that a anti-fed goverment took control of Bajor, and by having an aponent which you can compare to their former opresors his posision becomes stronger. By putting more weapons on the station you are basicly alienating the people and givin anti-fed parties fuel to spred.

You're putting too much emphasis on the actions of a minority. Indeed, IIRC the only reason Jaro was able put up as strong a front as he did was due to Cardassian support. The fact that Kira, one of the most vehemently isolationist officers in the militia, supported the Federation during the Circle crisis goes to show just how much progress the Federation had made in convincing the Bajorans of their good intentions in one year.

Again i ask you what potencial enemy the scans have show that thir are no major powers in the vicinity of the wormhole and that the teritory is not claimed by anyone. So by upgrading it agains an imaginery enemy you are again making the position of the federation weaker.

You again make the mistake of assuming that a clear enemy must be present before you set up defences. When confronted with a gateway to an unknown region such as the wormhole, defending the choke-point against attack is of vital importance if you don't want to risk having a full-scale war on your hands. Quite apart from the fact that sensor scans are far too short-ranged to determine the presence of any major powers, and can't determine their intentions anyway.

When the station was repaired and fitted with only the standatrt weapons it would be able to hold its own agains a ship or two.

Exactly - a ship or two. An utterly pathetic performance.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Maybe they just didn't have the budget.

[Captain Seafort]

Maybe they just didn't have the budget.

Who? The Feds or Paramount?

That's one possibility, but I'd have thought the single biggest scientific, economic and strategic discovery in the history of the Federation deserves a significant investment in its defence.

[mlsnoopy]

You're putting too much emphasis on the actions of a minority.

Yes a minority, that if the Federation would come in more militaristic could quite quickly become a majority. That is my argument a minority was able to take control of a goverment imagine what would happen if they would have a bigger suport.

to earning their trust

By instaling weapons which would make the staion a federation stronghold. The Circle would have loved that.

Federation had made in convincing the Bajorans of their good intentions in one year.

Yes without a massive military upgrade.

You again make the mistake of assuming that a clear enemy must be present before you set up defences.

The defences were set on Cardasian Federation border. They had no legal claim to put defences at the mouth of the wormhole and as soon as they had a legal claim they did so.

When confronted with a gateway to an unknown region such as the wormhole, defending the choke-point against attack is of vital importance if you don't want to risk having a full-scale war on your hands.

If the choke-point is yours.

Quite apart from the fact that sensor scans are far too short-ranged to determine the presence of any major powers, and can't determine their intentions anyway.

It took them two years to make contact with the Dominion. With SFs obsesion with exploration that is a long time.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Maybe they just didn't have the budget.

Who? The Feds or Paramount?

That's one possibility, but I'd have thought the single biggest scientific, economic and strategic discovery in the history of the Federation deserves a significant investment in its defence.

I don't know about the last too, but while the first is sure to be true, science really doesn't need guns. And the strategic stuff didn't really become a factor until the dominion was encountered.

[Ivan_Only]

Great: Garak. By far the best Star Trek Character. The interplay of him with Odo and Bashir is priceless. When he interacts with Worf is also very good.

Good: The War, it was nice to see a long story arc like this. However I do miss the 1 off episodes each week.

Average: Odo's Distaste for Quark, sometimes it seemed so forced

Bad: How vulnerable Ships were in large fleet actions, I can suspend my disbelief, but not that much

Terrible: Kira wearing a Baseball Cap

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Terrible: Kira wearing a Baseball Cap

Really? I loved that. Baseball is awesome.