Good Bad Ugly: DS9

[Teaos]

Before the wormhole it had need of only the most basic defence. After it needed a bit more just to keep the peace.

[Captain Seafort]

Before the wormhole it didn't need defences full stop - it was simply there to provide a nominal Federation presence in the sector.

After the wormhole was discovered it should have been immediately upgunned as much as possible within it's structural and power limitations, or replaced by a purpose-built Starfleet facility. It was on the doorstep to an unknown and unexplored area of space, and should have been as prepared as possible for any threats coming through the wormhole, even before the Jem'Hadar encounter.

[mlsnoopy]

After the wormhole was discovered it should have been immediately upgunned as much as possible within it's structural and power limitations, or replaced by a purpose-built Starfleet facility. It was on the doorstep to an unknown and unexplored area of space, and should have been as prepared as possible for any threats coming through the wormhole, even before the Jem'Hadar encounter.

Until a reasonable threat was discovered SF should invest weapons into an alien station, which they would have to abandone if asked by the goverement. And it should build a SF facility ly from their border and start a war with Cardasia. And when a threat was dicovered SF quickly upgraded the station. And that is the time when SF lacked the reasurces to upgrade the defences of Betazed.

[Captain Seafort]

Until a reasonable threat was discovered SF should invest weapons into an alien station, which they would have to abandon if asked by the government. And it should build a SF facility ly from their border and start a war with Cardassia.

When that station is guarding the gateway to a completely unknown region of space, and only a few days travel from the core worlds of the Federation, yes. The Bajorans would be an issue to be overcome through negotiation - some would be delighted to have their station upgraded free of charge, others would be worried about the Feds using the upgraded station to establish Fed control over Bajor in the same way the Cardies did.

And when a threat was discovered SF quickly upgraded the station.

It took the best part of a year, and only really got going after the Founders attempted to trigger a Fed-Tzenkethi war in "The Adversary". If the Jem'Hadar had invaded immediately after the Odyssey battle, the station and probably the entire Alpha Quadrant would have been overrun.

And that is the time when SF lacked the resources to upgrade the defences of Betazed.

Lack the resources or lacked the will? The impression I got was that Betazed's defences were obsolete because of Betazoid pacifism and Fed complacency rather than any lack of resources to modernise them.

[Aaron]

Lack the resources or lacked the will? The impression I got was that Betazed's defences were obsolete because of Betazoid pacifism and Fed complacency rather than any lack of resources to modernise them.

They mention that the garrison fleet was on exercises, leaving the planet unprotected. I wasn't aware that there were any other defense there.

[mlsnoopy]

When that station is guarding the gateway to a completely unknown region of space,

Space wich has been explored for 2 years without incountering a hostile race.

some would be delighted to have their station upgraded free of charge, others would be worried about the Feds using the upgraded station to establish Fed control over Bajor in the same way the Cardies did

Was it the Siege.

If the Jem'Hadar had invaded immediately after the Odyssey battle, the station and probably the entire Alpha Quadrant would have been overrun.

And when they invaded how long did the station stand.
Even the Dominion requiers time to gather their fleet.
What is interesting is that Jemhadar don't survive, was it 12 years, that means that the Dominion shoul be in a constant state of war and it would take them some time to build facilities to wage an aditional war.

[Captain Seafort]

They mention that the garrison fleet was on exercises, leaving the planet unprotected. I wasn't aware that there were any other defense there.

From the script:

SISKO
There's plenty of blame to go
around. The Tenth Fleet was
supposed to be protecting Betazed
and its outlying colonies, but
they were caught out of position
on a training exercise. What's
worse, Betazed's own defense
systems are obsolete and
undermanned.

The fleet was their primary defence, but the quote implies the presence of fixed defences as well, albeit obsolete.

[Captain Seafort]

Space wich has been explored for 2 years without incountering a hostile race.

I'm talking about the period immediately following the discovery of the wormhole - not years later. The station should have been refitted to meet a possible hostile force coming through the wormhole from day one - not waited until the threat had presented itself and hope that they would have enough time to prepare before they were attacked.

Was it the Siege.

That was the most serious anti-Fed incident, but I was talking about a more general opposition to the Fed presence.

And when they invaded how long did the station stand.

In "Call to Arms" the time span of the battle is unknown - in "The Search" the senior staff were predicting that the station would be overrrun with hours, which Kira declared was "not good enough".

Even the Dominion requiers time to gather their fleet.

So they should sit around waiting for the Dominion (or any threat force) to mobilise before preparing the station to defend the wormhole?

What is interesting is that Jemhadar don't survive, was it 12 years, that means that the Dominion shoul be in a constant state of war and it would take them some time to build facilities to wage an aditional war.

See above: the longer your opponent takes to mobilise, the longer you've got to prepare. Waiting for a threat to appear, and then preparing is stupid.

[Aaron]

From the script:

SISKO
There's plenty of blame to go
around. The Tenth Fleet was
supposed to be protecting Betazed
and its outlying colonies, but
they were caught out of position
on a training exercise. What's
worse, Betazed's own defense
systems are obsolete and
undermanned.

The fleet was their primary defence, but the quote implies the presence of fixed defences as well, albeit obsolete.

Ha! What a surprise.

[Captain Seafort]

Ha! What a surprise.

Is that sarcastic surprise at the fact that the defences were obsolete, or genuine surprise that they even existed?

[mlsnoopy]

I'm talking about the period immediately following the discovery of the wormhole - not years later. The station should have been refitted to meet a possible hostile force coming through the wormhole from day one - not waited until the threat had presented itself and hope that they would have enough time to prepare before they were attacked.

Make the station a stronghold, more massive than the one that Cardasians had. That would give a clear massage to the Bajorans. The Federation wanted that Bajor would eventualy join, and you don't begine that with alienating the goverment.
As the Circle demonstrated the isolation movement was strong. So if SF would upgrade the weapons they would fail in their primary mission.

That was the most serious anti-Fed incident, but I was talking about a more general opposition to the Fed presence.

Well Fed had to abandon the station, which could happen even sooner if the Fed would upgrade the station.

So they should sit around waiting for the Dominion (or any threat force) to mobilise before preparing the station to defend the wormhole?

No. When a thret appered the fortifyed the station, before that their position with the Bajor goverment was to weak to do that.

Waiting for a threat to appear, and then preparing is stupid.

Its SF they are stupid we know that. We must find an explanation why don't do it.

[Captain Seafort]

Make the station a stronghold, more massive than the one that Cardasians had. That would give a clear massage to the Bajorans. The Federation wanted that Bajor would eventualy join, and you don't begine that with alienating the goverment.

Which is why keeping the Bajorans on-side regarding the refit is important, including an emphasis that th defences are against external attack, rather than local power-projection.

As the Circle demonstrated the isolation movement was strong. So if SF would upgrade the weapons they would fail in their primary mission.

Wrong - the Circle was numerically weak, but had managed to infiltrate both the provisional government and the militia, giving it influence out of proportion to its numbers.

Well Fed had to abandon the station, which could happen even sooner if the Fed would upgrade the station.

Yes that's a risk - but the solution is to ensure close cooperation and liason with the Bajorans, not to abandon the strategic necessity of a heavilly defended wormhole because it's too difficult.

No. When a thret appered the fortifyed the station, before that their position with the Bajor goverment was to weak to do that.

The position of the provisional government (other than Jaro) was never made entirely clear. Ensuring Bajoran cooperation is important, but so is preparing defences for the wormhole in case of an attack from the Gamma Quadrent.

Its SF they are stupid we know that. We must find an explanation why don't do it.

That's one way of doing it. Another is to determine what they should have done, which in this case means establishing stong defences in front of the wormhole.

[Mikey]

I tend to agree with Seafort on this - I've said before that counting on NOT being attacked is a pretty poor first line of defense - but in this case I think you're kicking the wrong carcass. The station was Bajoran, de rigeur if not de facto, and was thus theirs to fortify - not Starfleet's. As Snoopy mentioned, the UFP presence was there originally to charm the Bajorans government, and you don't do that by making big decisions about their property for them.

Now, if you want to say that Starfleet should have had a stronger advisory presence in such matters, then I can't argue with that.

[mlsnoopy]

Which is why keeping the Bajorans on-side regarding the refit is important, including an emphasis that th defences are against external attack, rather than local power-projection.

They just fought of an invader an now Federation comes in and fortifys their system. They would beleve them. And even without the upgrade an antifederation goverment won.

Wrong - the Circle was numerically weak, but had managed to infiltrate both the provisional government and the militia, giving it influence out of proportion to its numbers.

So what if SF would make a military upgrade to the station the Circle would probaply be even more powerfull.

Yes that's a risk - but the solution is to ensure close cooperation and liason with the Bajorans, not to abandon the strategic necessity of a heavilly defended wormhole because it's too difficult.

They had close relations with the goverment and still got kicked of.

The position of the provisional government (other than Jaro) was never made entirely clear. Ensuring Bajoran cooperation is important, but so is preparing defences for the wormhole in case of an attack from the Gamma Quadrent.

And your argumen is that an imagionery enemy would atack. where there was no threat for two years. Again you are presenting an image of conquest.

That's one way of doing it. Another is to determine what they should have done, which in this case means establishing stong defences in front of the wormhole.

If the wormhole would be in federatin space that would be what they should done, but they were limited in thier action not to try to alienate the Bajorans. Wich almost happened even without a massive military upgrade.

[Aaron]

Ha! What a surprise.

Is that sarcastic surprise at the fact that the defences were obsolete, or genuine surprise that they even existed?

A little of both.