What is it about the 40k Universe that appeals to you?

[LaughingCheese]

So I looked at the Warhammer Lexicanum recently, because I appreciate stories crafted with deep lore and detailed worldbuilding.


I read/skimmed a few articles, particularly about the Emperor of course, the Warp/Webway, Unifcation Wars (because I was interested in the history up to the Imperium), and a few others.

I just don't understand the appeal; its such a violent universe, citizens have no rights, they're crammed together in massive hive worlds, there's no due process, and there's war all the time. Sure there's conflict in other series, but at least Star Trek is hopeful, Star Wars may be a little more grey but the movies show the Light to be a clear winner for the most part. What exactly is the draw of this series? I can't say I would want to live in it.

So could some lore masters please fill in if I'm missing anything? Maybe there's some rays of hope I've missed? Or does it suck that much to live there? Though I will admit theres some pretty cool stuff, but on the whole, its a little too dark for my tastes. I mean, I suppose I already understand some of the reasons some might find this dark setting appealing, but I'd like to hear from the fans.


Also I always thought Space Marine armor was ridiculously bulky; I know I know its Gothic and all but still. (Cue flame war. )

PS: Are there any stories that take the 40k lore from present day history to the Imperium? All I could find were the listing of the nations the Emperor battled in the Unifcation Wars, anything earlier seems to be almost prehistory.

Thanks

LC




EDIT: Wow, I see there hasn't been any action in this forum for a LONG time. Should I delete this?

[sunnyside]

We're still around, and this is a question I've been wondering too.

Now, to some extent I think it's a matter of practicality. First and foremost WH40k is a tabletop wargame. It has spread out to books, video games, even a movie, but I suspect most fans were exposed to it in some game store and like it for reasons of playability or the art/craft of assembling and painting miniatures.

It's a matter of practicality for a wargame that everybody is fighting everybody, including themselves, all the time in order to validate the tabletop epic you're playing out. That inherently speaks to a dark dystopia. The other tabletop game I have experience with, Battletech, also has a fair bit of that going on.

I'm also finding, in terms of writing, a setting of profound dysfunction allows a great deal of flexibility without having to pull out quantum something or other. I figure 90%+ of the YATI on this site come from the fact that we assume the leadership of Trek factions are not insane, possessing an inherently inaccurate world view, or otherwise divorced from functional logic and planning as we understand them.

However that explains why the fluff developed the way it did, not why fans seem to have latched onto it far beyond the confines of a rulebook.

I'll float the hypothesis that we're in a time of political correctness, always having to see things from the others perspective, and quite a bit of role confusion. As we've seen in the Oscars recently, the drama of real life can't even be separated from our fantasy. I think people feel like they need to escape from the reality of their escapes from reality. So while other settings throw in all sorts of emotional stuff, 40k is the uncut heroin of reveling in battle.

There is no nuance, there are no love stories, tears are not shed for your battle brother falling beside you. But righteous indignation is abundant. Every faction can understand themselves as the heroes and the others as genocidal vermin needing eradication, and they'd all essentially be correct.

[Mikey]

I think part of the appeal of the grimdark universe is that it's different from the typical. There's no ray of hope, no peaceful rest after fighting your hardest... just more fighting. Or you die. Or worse. Most milieus feature some sort of omnipresent danger, but there's a tangible reward and peace when you're done - not so in WHF/WH40k. There is a WH40k novel by Mitchel Scanlon entitled Fifteen Hours - the title refers to the fact that at the front line of the planetary war in the book,

the life expectancy of a replacement soldier, measured from the time he rotates to the front, is 15 hours.

Also I always thought Space Marine armor was ridiculously bulky; I know I know its Gothic and all but still. (Cue flame war. )

It is. Even more so since the original "Rogue Trader" (i.e., original rules from the '80's) era of WH40k. However, consider the Space Marines' attitude toward camouflage - to wit, that camouflage is for weak, scared, normal humans. Not only does Astartes power armor need to be bulkier than just a carapace - because it incorporates all sorts of technological systems - but it a) has to house a "person" who is anywhere from seven to eight feet tall (or more) and built like a world-class bodybuilder in ratio to that height; and b) that armor doesn't have to just be armor - it has to convey the unmistakable impression that if you are looking across the field at that armor, you are in a very bad place indeed. Besides,

PS: Are there any stories that take the 40k lore from present day history to the Imperium? All I could find were the listing of the nations the Emperor battled in the Unifcation Wars, anything earlier seems to be almost prehistory.

Not that I know of. There is a timeline on the Lexicanum site, with some internal links to articles regarding millenia of interest. As far as Black Library books, there is a large series of novels set in the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, even more so now that Forge World's Great Crusade models and Legio Astartes gaming have become so popular. Dan Abnett and Gav Thorpe have been contributors to the series among others.

[Reliant121]

Better late than never.

My own affinity for the WH40K universe echoes Mikey's in that WH40K represents perhaps the most stark, most outrageous and most powerful universe built around total and ever-present dystopia. It's an absolute, total and complete hell hole of a universe with billions of different ways to be killed, or eternally damned, and that's before you even meet the enemy.

I don't think there's any such universe that I can quite think of with such a bleak outlook and that makes it fascinating. Sunny is right in that it also allows an almost untold level of creative licence with a fairly minimal degree of handwavium applied, within the confines of the lore's physics anyway.

[LaughingCheese]

We're still around, and this is a question I've been wondering too.

Now, to some extent I think it's a matter of practicality. First and foremost WH40k is a tabletop wargame. It has spread out to books, video games, even a movie, but I suspect most fans were exposed to it in some game store and like it for reasons of playability or the art/craft of assembling and painting miniatures.

It's a matter of practicality for a wargame that everybody is fighting everybody, including themselves, all the time in order to validate the tabletop epic you're playing out. That inherently speaks to a dark dystopia. The other tabletop game I have experience with, Battletech, also has a fair bit of that going on.

I'm also finding, in terms of writing, a setting of profound dysfunction allows a great deal of flexibility without having to pull out quantum something or other. I figure 90%+ of the YATI on this site come from the fact that we assume the leadership of Trek factions are not insane, possessing an inherently inaccurate world view, or otherwise divorced from functional logic and planning as we understand them.

However that explains why the fluff developed the way it did, not why fans seem to have latched onto it far beyond the confines of a rulebook.

I'll float the hypothesis that we're in a time of political correctness, always having to see things from the others perspective, and quite a bit of role confusion. As we've seen in the Oscars recently, the drama of real life can't even be separated from our fantasy. I think people feel like they need to escape from the reality of their escapes from reality. So while other settings throw in all sorts of emotional stuff, 40k is the uncut heroin of reveling in battle.

There is no nuance, there are no love stories, tears are not shed for your battle brother falling beside you. But righteous indignation is abundant. Every faction can understand themselves as the heroes and the others as genocidal vermin needing eradication, and they'd all essentially be correct.

That's actually quite fascinating; so your'e saying fluff develops from utopia, whereas a dystopia by nature confines that? Interesting.

And by fluff I assume you mean handwavium/technobabble?

Besides,

Ok, that's pretty awesome! That great paint scheme somehow minimizes the bulkiness. I guess what I'm saying is most paint schemes make them look just plasticy and toyish.

PS: Are there any stories that take the 40k lore from present day history to the Imperium? All I could find were the listing of the nations the Emperor battled in the Unifcation Wars, anything earlier seems to be almost prehistory.

Not that I know of. There is a timeline on the Lexicanum site, with some internal links to articles regarding millenia of interest. As far as Black Library books, there is a large series of novels set in the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, even more so now that Forge World's Great Crusade models and Legio Astartes gaming have become so popular. Dan Abnett and Gav Thorpe have been contributors to the series among others.

Bummer. That would be fascinating. What events lead to the small number of nations and warbands that the Emperor took over during the Unification Wars? Did he influence at all up till then? Did he ever play a large roll or was he always waiting in the wings, till the time was right?

Better late than never.

My own affinity for the WH40K universe echoes Mikey's in that WH40K represents perhaps the most stark, most outrageous and most powerful universe built around total and ever-present dystopia. It's an absolute, total and complete hell hole of a universe with billions of different ways to be killed, or eternally damned, and that's before you even meet the enemy.

How is one damned in WH40K? I didn't come across any articles on a hell. Is the soul is banished to the Warp or something?


Also, is the Warp only contained within the Milky Way, or does it span the Universe? Being a type of hyperspace-thing, I would assume it spans the universe no?

[Mikey]

And by fluff I assume you mean handwavium/technobabble?

The term "fluff" is used to denote the lore of the milieu apart from actual technical or mechanical gaming information. That is, "A 5-man squad of Space Marines costs x points to field" is game info - "Fulgrim was known as the Phoenician and had his legion renamed 'Emperor's Children'" is fluff.

Ok, that's pretty awesome! That great paint scheme somehow minimizes the bulkiness. I guess what I'm saying is most paint schemes make them look just plasticy and toyish.

To be fair, most of the time they are plastic toys. Also, like I said, indicating "post-human supermen who have killed things by squishing skulls by simply clapping their hands" is an important function of the armor.

How is one damned in WH40K? I didn't come across any articles on a hell. Is the soul is banished to the Warp or something?

The Warp is an infinty-way street. Things come out of the warp - mostly called "daemons" - that can possess a host a/o take someone's soul to be used as a daemon's beach ball for a couple millenia or so. The soul of a psyker is especially shiny bait to warp entities, and the use of psyker abilities is essentially the opening of a conduit from the Immaterium (the Warp) to the Materium (the real world.) Psykers, especially, may be damned either by possession or simply by the flood of warp energy overtaking their minds. Finally, there are those who are damned simply by pledging themselves to one or more of the four gods of the Warp (aka Chaos gods, aka the Ruinous Powers) - Nurgle, Slaanesh, Khorne, and Tzeentch (q.v.) These sorts are generally either transmuted into a twisted daemon-thing or more commonly simply pulled into the Warp in eternal slavery to one of the daemons of their patron.

Also, is the Warp only contained within the Milky Way, or does it span the Universe? Being a type of hyperspace-thing, I would assume it spans the universe no?

Good question. IU, the universe outside of the galaxy is terra incognito - human exploration is limited to little past the range of the Astronomican - the psychic navigation beacon projected by the Emperor. Further, though ships travel "through" the Warp (except Tau ships,) it seems to me to be incorrect to describe in terms of the physical dimensions of the Materium. It is the stuff of Chaos, and as such may be said to span the universe and in the same breath it may be said to be microcosmic or even completely non-dimensional. It's like trying to describe the color of a particular noise. I don't think you can think of it as truly analagous to a "hyperspace," because it's not just a shortcut through any alternate dimension or curvature of space-time; entering the Warp is entering an "un-reality," if you will, and then relying on your navigator to find a way through to a point at which you can exit into reality near your intended destination (cf. "navigator.") That's why time frames can be so malleable - if a navigator plots an erroneous course, or a ship founders or hits a warp storm or what have you, that ship can came out of the warp centuries after it entered - possibly before it entered - with no discernable passage of time for the passengers.

[LaughingCheese]

And by fluff I assume you mean handwavium/technobabble?

The term "fluff" is used to denote the lore of the milieu apart from actual technical or mechanical gaming information. That is, "A 5-man squad of Space Marines costs x points to field" is game info - "Fulgrim was known as the Phoenician and had his legion renamed 'Emperor's Children'" is fluff.

I see, thanks.

Ok, that's pretty awesome! That great paint scheme somehow minimizes the bulkiness. I guess what I'm saying is most paint schemes make them look just plasticy and toyish.

To be fair, most of the time they are plastic toys.

True true.

Also, like I said, indicating "post-human supermen who have killed things by squishing skulls by simply clapping their hands" is an important function of the armor.

Lol, this is good enough to be a sig.

The Warp is an infinty-way street. Things come out of the warp - mostly called "daemons" - that can possess a host a/o take someone's soul to be used as a daemon's beach ball for a couple millenia or so. The soul of a psyker is especially shiny bait to warp entities, and the use of psyker abilities is essentially the opening of a conduit from the Immaterium (the Warp) to the Materium (the real world.) Psykers, especially, may be damned either by possession or simply by the flood of warp energy overtaking their minds. Finally, there are those who are damned simply by pledging themselves to one or more of the four gods of the Warp (aka Chaos gods, aka the Ruinous Powers) - Nurgle, Slaanesh, Khorne, and Tzeentch (q.v.) These sorts are generally either transmuted into a twisted daemon-thing or more commonly simply pulled into the Warp in eternal slavery to one of the daemons of their patron.

Also, is the Warp only contained within the Milky Way, or does it span the Universe? Being a type of hyperspace-thing, I would assume it spans the universe no?

Good question. IU, the universe outside of the galaxy is terra incognito - human exploration is limited to little past the range of the Astronomican - the psychic navigation beacon projected by the Emperor. Further, though ships travel "through" the Warp (except Tau ships,) it seems to me to be incorrect to describe in terms of the physical dimensions of the Materium. It is the stuff of Chaos, and as such may be said to span the universe and in the same breath it may be said to be microcosmic or even completely non-dimensional. It's like trying to describe the color of a particular noise. I don't think you can think of it as truly analagous to a "hyperspace," because it's not just a shortcut through any alternate dimension or curvature of space-time; entering the Warp is entering an "un-reality," if you will, and then relying on your navigator to find a way through to a point at which you can exit into reality near your intended destination (cf. "navigator.") That's why time frames can be so malleable - if a navigator plots an erroneous course, or a ship founders or hits a warp storm or what have you, that ship can came out of the warp centuries after it entered - possibly before it entered - with no discernable passage of time for the passengers.

Great description, thanks!


Also, I read about the basically being entombed on his throne and the theories about how he might resurrect himself. One was that his spirit was floating around in the Warp, recharging or something.

Wouldn't that be a bad idea? Shouldn't the Chaos Gods be able to see his spirit especially and do something about it?

[LaughingCheese]

And by fluff I assume you mean handwavium/technobabble?

The term "fluff" is used to denote the lore of the milieu apart from actual technical or mechanical gaming information. That is, "A 5-man squad of Space Marines costs x points to field" is game info - "Fulgrim was known as the Phoenician and had his legion renamed 'Emperor's Children'" is fluff.

I see, thanks.

To be fair, most of the time they are plastic toys.

True true.

Also, like I said, indicating "post-human supermen who have killed things by squishing skulls by simply clapping their hands" is an important function of the armor.

Lol, I should make this a sig.

Also, is the Warp only contained within the Milky Way, or does it span the Universe? Being a type of hyperspace-thing, I would assume it spans the universe no?

Good question. IU, the universe outside of the galaxy is terra incognito - human exploration is limited to little past the range of the Astronomican - the psychic navigation beacon projected by the Emperor. Further, though ships travel "through" the Warp (except Tau ships,) it seems to me to be incorrect to describe in terms of the physical dimensions of the Materium. It is the stuff of Chaos, and as such may be said to span the universe and in the same breath it may be said to be microcosmic or even completely non-dimensional. It's like trying to describe the color of a particular noise. I don't think you can think of it as truly analagous to a "hyperspace," because it's not just a shortcut through any alternate dimension or curvature of space-time; entering the Warp is entering an "un-reality," if you will, and then relying on your navigator to find a way through to a point at which you can exit into reality near your intended destination (cf. "navigator.") That's why time frames can be so malleable - if a navigator plots an erroneous course, or a ship founders or hits a warp storm or what have you, that ship can came out of the warp centuries after it entered - possibly before it entered - with no discernable passage of time for the passengers.[/quote]


Great description, thanks!


Also, I read about the Emperor basically being entombed on his throne and the theories about how he might resurrect himself. One was that his spirit was floating around in the Warp, recharging or something.

Wouldn't that be a bad idea? Shouldn't the Chaos Gods be able to see his spirit especially and do something about it?

[Mikey]

I'm a little fuzzy on the resurrection theories in 40k. There are Inquisition factions and other secret cabals who believe in sacrificing a powerful psyker (the "Starchild*" or somesuch) in order for it to be reborn as a vessel for the resurrected Emperor, and other similar gobbledygook. I think that stuff has mostly been written out of the source material, but I'm not positive.

The being entombed thing is for sure, though. The Golden Throne isn't a throne for the Emperor in the conventional sense; at the height of the Siege of Terra during the Horus Heresy, the Emperor was mortally wounded in the process of killing Horus. The Adeptus Mechanicus constructed an eldritch machine called "the Golden Throne" to sustain him in a near-death state - not only would his death nullify the treaty between the Mechanicus and the Imperium and cause the political collapse of the Imperium; but the Emperor was the only psyker powerful enough to create and sustain the Astronomican (making space travel possible,) keep the Webway entrance he'd created open, etc. There were only two psykers even close in power to the Emperor: Magnus the Red, primarch of the Thousand Sons legion, and Malcador the Sigilite who was a close advisor of the Emperor's. Magnus was one of the traitor primarchs and subsequently became a Daemon Prince; and Malcador - a more powerful psyker than has been seen in humanity since - was tasked with holding the Webway entrance open and guarded from daemons while the Emperor was being installed in the Golden Throne. The effort killed him.

[Reliant121]

Whether he is resurrected or not, his 'soul' is constantly laid bare for the warp anyway. It's purely his immense mental fortitude, as well as the sacrifice of countless weaker psykers whose minds are not strong enough to undergo sanctioning (therefore being able to use their talent), that keeps him and by extension Imperium society in check. He alone has the strength to keep chaos incidents to a relative minimum as well as maintain astrotelepathic communications and the Astronomican functioning making space travel possible.

I believe the thinking is that Psykers are the way humanity is evolving but, at present, the abilities of a Psyker varies wildly and the process to give them control over that gift is excrutiating. The emperor must stay alive as long as humanity evolves psychic ability to such a degree it is universal and controllable, on a similar level to the Eldar I suppose.

[Mikey]

^ This.

There has always been a huge dichotomy in the way the IoM perceives psykers. On one hand, they are called "witches" and ostracized and hunted as such as if the Malleus Maleficarum were more commonplace than Gideons' Bible. OTOH, the Imperium worships as a monotheistic deity the greatest psyker ever; one of the most powerful organizations of the IoM, and the one entrusted with its ultimate security, is one founded by the second-greatest psyker ever; the Emperor would die without the sacrifice of countless psykers daily; interstellar government is only possible through long-range communications which are only possible via psykers; psykers are used by the Imperial Guard, are commonly found as powerful Inquisitors, and form a cadre of high-ranking advisors and officers in most chapters of the Adeptus Astartes.

I have also heard, like Reliant, that there is a theory that humanity is evolving toward a psychically-awakened position. The problem is the growing pains. During the time it takes to become a truly psychic race, humanity as a whole suffers from the same perils as an individual untrained psyker - that is, a giant bull's-eye on their backs for the depredations of Chaos.

[sunnyside]

That's actually quite fascinating; so your'e saying fluff develops from utopia, whereas a dystopia by nature confines that? Interesting.

And by fluff I assume you mean handwavium/technobabble?

Mikey had it right, fluff is everything other than game mechanics. There is a sort of book they call a codex, with one (or sometimes more) for each faction in the game. They have a rules needed to play them on a tabletop, but the rules could fit into something more like a pamphlet. Everything else bulking up the tome to book size that isn't art is considered fluff. In WH40k the fluff isn't very cuddly of course.

The particular sort of fluff that comes from a more utopic setting is the sorts of lapses needed to make interesting scenes with conflict happen, which tend to get noticed on this site.

Also, is the Warp only contained within the Milky Way, or does it span the Universe? Being a type of hyperspace-thing, I would assume it spans the universe no?

Based on the Tyranids using the warp and having come from beyond the Milky Way, I'm going to say it spans the universe. However without life around it sounds like the warp is calm and dead. The fluff indicates that even in the Milky Way the warp was relatively safe prior to the Eldar screwing it up.

[Reliant121]

To provide context, Sunnyside refers to to the Fall of the Eldar. They were once the preeminent superpower in space. As a race in general they feel everything on a much more heightened sense than humans do. Their emotions, tied to their psychic ability, are much much stronger than ours. As time passed and they becMe less reliant on labour and could divert more time to other pursuits, a culture of hedonism evolved. It became darker and more depraved until eventually the warp responded to the millions of Eldar resonating through it. This gave birth to the chaos god Slaanesh, an event which annihilated all but the fringes of Eldar society and gave birth to the Eye of Terra. The Elxar craft worlds are, in a Sense, Eldar splinter groups that had grown wary of their peoples wayward attitude.

The dangers of the warp have become exponentially more acute since the fall as an entire region of material space is consumed by the Eye.

[sunnyside]

To provide context, Sunnyside refers to to the Fall of the Eldar. They were once the preeminent superpower in space. As a race in general they feel everything on a much more heightened sense than humans do. Their emotions, tied to their psychic ability, are much much stronger than ours. As time passed and they becMe less reliant on labour and could divert more time to other pursuits, a culture of hedonism evolved. It became darker and more depraved until eventually the warp responded to the millions of Eldar resonating through it. This gave birth to the chaos god Slaanesh, an event which annihilated all but the fringes of Eldar society and gave birth to the Eye of Terra. The Elxar craft worlds are, in a Sense, Eldar splinter groups that had grown wary of their peoples wayward attitude.

The dangers of the warp have become exponentially more acute since the fall as an entire region of material space is consumed by the Eye.

That also ties in with my earlier comment on dysfunction. With the possible exceptions of the Tau, none of the armies in WH40K are in any way well oiled, rational, and functional cultures.

Of existing groups, the Necrons first ruled over everything. They had to go into hiding due to the ascending Eldar and are now soulless, frequently insane, and certainly fractured.
Then as noted above the Eldar brought about their own fall. Sometimes players get hung up on how the elder are supposed to have all this super advanced technology, but in their craftworlds and webway nooks the Eldar are sort of like Waterworld/Mad Max survivors, getting by as well as they can by keeping things from the height of their civilization going but without the ability to truly reproduce them, especially while dealing with the various threats in the universe.

The Orks are essentially out of control bioweapons that are having a lot of fun and don't care if we'd call them insane or dysfunctional.
I think the Tyranids are sort of like the Orks that way, and seem to largely be operating on instinct.

Chaos often takes a dim view of this "sanity" thing people seem so hung up on.

And of course humanity in its various forms had it's own turn to rule the galaxy after the elder, until we had our own "rise of the robots" scenario that we barely survived. Our technology has never returned to that level, and over time and things like the Horus Heresy we've been taking two steps back for every step forward, and the techpriests are getting awfully suspicious of those steps forward.

The Tau seem pretty functional due to their relative newness and the small size of their empire. Though they operate with a ridged caste system, and possibly some sort of mind control. Still, they aren't "good" by any stretch. They're still engaged in continual wars of aggression. It's just that they might conquer a people instead of committing genocide by default.

[Mikey]

The problem for the Tau as far as being a threat of conquest is space travel.