Retrozap: Padmé Didn’t Die of a Broken Heart

[sunnyside]

I though and still thin its broken heart.

From what I know that is a real thing as well, people can simply loose the will to live, maybe not a fully healthy adult dropping dead, but someone who is already weakened can simply give up the will to live.

I have heard people speak of things like a will to live or fighting to survive. I figured it had to do with how much one was willing to do things like make yourself breath deeply again and again when you're really tired and it hurts to do so. I could also see some measure of psychologically willing your body to kick out some adrenaline and endorphins to help fight off shock.

I've also heard of dying of a broken heart, but more in the context of descending into a deep depression and seriously neglecting ones well being to the point of death. But that takes a while.

[Mikey]

People can lose the will to fight through a potentially fatal situation, but that so-called "broken heart" isn't the fatal situation itself. In other words, that "broken heart" may have contributed to Padme not fighting through her issue, but it was the issue itself that was the cause of death - not the lack of will.

[Teaos]

Agreed, the term 'Dying of a broken heart" is not 100% medially corresct, but it does play a significant roll in someones death if they simply choose not to fight a sickness/injury/disease ect.

[Mikey]

Agreed, the term 'Dying of a broken heart" is not 100% medially corresct, but it does play a significant roll in someones death if they simply choose not to fight a sickness/injury/disease ect.

That may be true, and I don't deny it despite the fact of that idea defying any sort of proof by its very nature. Be that as it may, one cannot say that "a broken heart" killed Padme. It may certainly have contributed to a death that she might have otherwise forestalled, but it couldn't have caused her death.

[sunnyside]

That may be true, and I don't deny it despite the fact of that idea defying any sort of proof by its very nature. Be that as it may, one cannot say that "a broken heart" killed Padme. It may certainly have contributed to a death that she might have otherwise forestalled, but it couldn't have caused her death.

Although again we're talking about a setting where we've seen people die, and their bodies completely vanish, just by willing it. So you can't really rule it out. Although you'd think the babies would provide some will to live. But who knows exactly how all that works?

I'm still leaning towards "force related complications" due to Anikan's attack being too much when combined with various physical trauma on top of childbirth.

I can't rule out a long range whack job. I mean we've seen long range force chokes, and they can obviously sense at such distance. But if they had that ability you'd think they'd use it more. Did he ever have a good opportunity around that time to put some sort of whammy (from obscure poisons to some kind of force thing) on her? I don't remember well enough, but I don't remember something like that.

[Mikey]

So you can't really rule it out.

Yes I can. Padme wasn't a Force user.

I can't rule out a long range whack job. I mean we've seen long range force chokes, and they can obviously sense at such distance. But if they had that ability you'd think they'd use it more. Did he ever have a good opportunity around that time to put some sort of whammy (from obscure poisons to some kind of force thing) on her? I don't remember well enough, but I don't remember something like that.

Again:
a) There's no evidence of that sort of power; nad
b) There was a Jedi master concetnrating intently on Padme at the time and not only did he not sense a Force attack, he didn't even know she was dying.

[sunnyside]

Yes I can. Padme wasn't a Force user.

I'm pretty sure, especially since the prequils, that in the setting every living thing has a connection to the force. All life needs some amount of Midichlorians to exist.

It's just a matter that some people are "strong with the force" and others not as much, and of those strong with the force they still need training to do all the crazy Jedi/Sith stuff. So it's possible, and reasonable given her kids, that Padame actually had a high midichlorian count, but her position would have made persuing the monastic Jedi lifestyle out of the question. But it's possible even a low count would still be sufficient to turn despair into something potentially fatal.

Again:
a) There's no evidence of that sort of power; nad
b) There was a Jedi master concetnrating intently on Padme at the time and not only did he not sense a Force attack, he didn't even know she was dying.

Palpatine did a lot of rambling about sneaky Sith powers and maintaining/ending life. I got a little bit of a feeling of foreshadowing there. Also while we're used to the characters talking to themselves for our benifit, if there wasn't anything he could do there wouldn't be much point in discussing it with a droid. That would probably be more applicable in the case where residual force related damage was present from Anakin's attack.


Although I'm beginning to get a strong feeling that at some point Lucas was staring at his writing, and he knew what he wanted to have happen, but couldn't come up with a great reason for it, so like many writers before him who had painted themselves in a corner, he just pulled a Deus Ex Machina. I give fair odds even he hadn't decided on what went down. It just needed to go down so it did.

[Mikey]

I'm pretty sure, especially since the prequils, that in the setting every living thing has a connection to the force. All life needs some amount of Midichlorians to exist.

It's just a matter that some people are "strong with the force" and others not as much, and of those strong with the force they still need training to do all the crazy Jedi/Sith stuff. So it's possible, and reasonable given her kids, that Padame actually had a high midichlorian count, but her position would have made persuing the monastic Jedi lifestyle out of the question. But it's possible even a low count would still be sufficient to turn despair into something potentially fatal.

Potential to be a Force user or potential to spawn Force users or strong connection to the Force =/= being a Force user. We've only seen trained Force users die and vanish like you mentioned, so I can rule it out in Padme's case.

Palpatine did a lot of rambling about sneaky Sith powers and maintaining/ending life. I got a little bit of a feeling of foreshadowing there. Also while we're used to the characters talking to themselves for our benifit, if there wasn't anything he could do there wouldn't be much point in discussing it with a droid. That would probably be more applicable in the case where residual force related damage was present from Anakin's attack.

Vague rumblings from a con man engaged in a con =/= evidence of a power which he didn't even mention in that case. And in the case of Obi-Wan not mentioning having felt anything Force-wise, it wasn't just that he didn't mention it - he was shocked to hear that she was dying.

[Captain Seafort]

Vague rumblings from a con man engaged in a con =/= evidence of a power which he didn't even mention in that case. And in the case of Obi-Wan not mentioning having felt anything Force-wise, it wasn't just that he didn't mention it - he was shocked to hear that she was dying.

Would this be the same Jedi Master who, along with several other Jedi Masters, including at least some who were far stronger than him, never realised that their head of state also happened to be the Sith Lord they'd been hunting for for years despite regular meetings with him?

[Mikey]

Vague rumblings from a con man engaged in a con =/= evidence of a power which he didn't even mention in that case. And in the case of Obi-Wan not mentioning having felt anything Force-wise, it wasn't just that he didn't mention it - he was shocked to hear that she was dying.

Would this be the same Jedi Master who, along with several other Jedi Masters, including at least some who were far stronger than him, never realised that their head of state also happened to be the Sith Lord they'd been hunting for for years despite regular meetings with him?

Yes it would, and you have a fair point; however, I'd say that the situation differs somewhat in a couple of important ways. First, Padme wasn't actively trying to deflect or block Obi-Wan's scrutiny as Palpy obviously had been all that time - indeed, as a non-Force user she was unlikely to have the skill or power to do so; second, none of the Jedi (until the fateful "too-late" moment) were focusing their attention on Palps the way that Obi-Wan was on Padme during her labor and death.

[Captain Seafort]

Yes it would, and you have a fair point; however, I'd say that the situation differs somewhat in a couple of important ways. First, Padme wasn't actively trying to deflect or block Obi-Wan's scrutiny as Palpy obviously had been all that time - indeed, as a non-Force user she was unlikely to have the skill or power to do so

Indeed, but Padme wouldn't have been the source of the problem but it's target, the source would have been either Vader (unconciously) or Sidious

second, none of the Jedi (until the fateful "too-late" moment) were focusing their attention on Palps the way that Obi-Wan was on Padme during her labor and death.

Unlikely - the Council were suspicious enough of Palpatine to order Anakin to spy on him, and had already focused enough attention to determine that he was "surrounded" by the Dark Side. They still didn't have an inkling that he was Sidious, and going by the old canon the closest they got was a suspicion that Sidious might be one of Palpatine's inner circle.

[Mikey]

Indeed, but Padme wouldn't have been the source of the problem but it's target, the source would have been either Vader (unconciously) or Sidious

Yep, OK. No matter.

Unlikely - the Council were suspicious enough of Palpatine to order Anakin to spy on him, and had already focused enough attention to determine that he was "surrounded" by the Dark Side. They still didn't have an inkling that he was Sidious, and going by the old canon the closest they got was a suspicion that Sidious might be one of Palpatine's inner circle.

#1 - It is likely, given the fact that rankling suspicion =/= the sort of active and ferocious concentration which Obi-Wan was lavishing on Padme while she was in labor.
#2 - Padme, as you say, had neither the inclination, ability, or strength to mask herself in the Force from Obi-Wan the way Palps could mask himself from the Jedi.

[sunnyside]

Potential to be a Force user or potential to spawn Force users or strong connection to the Force =/= being a Force user. We've only seen trained Force users die and vanish like you mentioned, so I can rule it out in Padme's case.

Being untrained doesn't seem to prevent one from leveraging the force in any manner. Anakin was entirely untrained but was supposed to have been able to use the force to aid in his pod racing. In "A new hope" Luke is able to do a bit and "feel something" in his first shipboard lesson and Vader had trouble with him because "the force was strong with this one" indicating efficacy while still untrained.

Training just lets you pull off much much more. The vanishing act is an advanced way for a skilled force user to will themselves to die. Slipping away while already injured and under physical stress might be what someone untrained could pull off, possibly inadvertantly.

[Mikey]

Anakin was entirely untrained but was supposed to have been able to use the force to aid in his pod racing.

Indeed, he had the superhuman reflexes which are characteristic of an individual strong with the Force. That's an entirely different kettle of fish than making use of a trained Force skill that we've only seen Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Vader/Anakin accomplish successfully and in which Qui-Gon Jinn only began to dabble. Not only is it thusly presented as an extremely demanding skill, it is more basically a skill, rather than an innate characteristic like young Anakin's reflexes.

In "A new hope (sic)" Luke is able to do a bit and "feel something" in his first shipboard lesson

As he should have, being strong in the Force. That is not nearly the same as saying that he had the ability to use Force powers without training.

and Vader had trouble with him because "the force was strong with this one" indicating efficacy while still untrained.

That line indicated no such thing; in fact it indicated nothing except that Vader could feel that "the Force was strong with this one" - which oddly enough is what the line said. The only thing that gave Vader trouble with Luke in that scene was a couple of pot-shots from the Falcon at Vader's 5 o'clock high.

Training just lets you pull off much much more. The vanishing act is an advanced way for a skilled force user to will themselves to die. Slipping away while already injured and under physical stress might be what someone untrained could pull off, possibly inadvertantly.

As you say, it is a skill utilized by a trained Force user - as I've indicated above, in fact only three of the best of the best were able to pull it off (if we include Anakin's reappearance as a Force ghost, otherwise only two.) I suppose it's inadvertent use under duress is possible as you say, though such an occurrence is on par with my five-year-old son sitting down to add 2 + 2 and accidentally figuring out the integral of a given interval on the real line. Not really something we could consider a strong possibility.