What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

[Lighthawk]

But there are readily visible cosmetic similarities between all headlights of a concurrent time frame from the same brand.

Similarities yes, but they're not indentical, which is what I believe Tyyr was complaining about.

[stitch626]

It would be unrealistic if they all had the same crew, the same amount of fuel, the same cargo loads as the connie. But I personally doubt that any reasonable person (which doesn't include the furball) would claim that all of them are exacly the same as the connie, just shaped differently.

[Captain Seafort]

It would be unrealistic if they all had the same crew, the same amount of fuel, the same cargo loads as the connie. But I personally doubt that any reasonable person (which doesn't include the furball) would claim that all of them are exacly the same as the connie, just shaped differently.

Indeed - the weapons are the same (at least between the Connie and the destroyer), but the crew, cargo capacity and endurance are much lower for the destroyers and scouts.

[Tyyr]

Read again, what he said is that the entire drive chain is contained in the nacelles. There is no warp core, anti-matter pods and all sorts of other things to squeeze in. Since every variant uses the same nacelles there is no need to squeeze anything anywhere.

Unfortunately that's not how the ships are arranged and things work by canon. Like it or not the way FJ postulated things to work isn't how they work. If you want them canon designs then somewhere in the primary hull they had to pack in all that equipment.

I doubt anyone would seriously claim that everything from the connie would be crammed into these other ships.

No, I don't think anyone is. However some parts of the Connie that are in the secondary hull, like warp core, fuel, etc. have to go somewhere and if you want them to be canon ships then that isn't in the nacelles.

Even if those components are not modular, why wouldn't they look the same? No matter what the internals look like, one nacelle (for example) should look cosmetically like another built by the same folks.

There would be a similar design aesthetic of course. They aren't similar though, they are straight up cut and paste jobs from the Connie. The Miranda shares many similarities of the Connie, marking it as a contemporary and likely from the same group as who made the Connie.

[Captain Seafort]

Unfortunately that's not how the ships are arranged and things work by canon. Like it or not the way FJ postulated things to work isn't how they work. If you want them canon designs then somewhere in the primary hull they had to pack in all that equipment.

The canon designs only very loosely resemble Franz Joseph's designs anyway, given that they're simply grainy background images, therefore you'd have to differentiate between those ships and the SFTM designs themselves

There would be a similar design aesthetic of course. They aren't similar though, they are straight up cut and paste jobs from the Connie.

Have you had a look at the hulls of the Spruances and Ticos recently?

[Tyyr]

The canon designs only very loosely resemble Franz Joseph's designs anyway, given that they're simply grainy background images, therefore you'd have to differentiate between those ships and the SFTM designs themselves

The grainy ones I have no real issue with. The images we have of them are so bad its not to hard to assume they only superficially resemble the Connies rather than being

Have you had a look at the hulls of the Spruances and Ticos recently?

Yes, I have. However we're not talking about a Spruance to Tico type change. We're talking taking a Spruance, deleting the center 100 feet out of it and welding the two halves back together and calling it a perfectly valid design. Spruance to Tico is original Connie to Ent-A.

[Captain Seafort]

Yes, I have. However we're not talking about a Spruance to Tico type change. We're talking taking a Spruance, deleting the center 100 feet out of it and welding the two halves back together and calling it a perfectly valid design. Spruance to Tico is original Connie to Ent-A.

Spruance to Tico is more like Connie to destroyer/scout - the basic hull is identical, it's simply got different superstructure, just as the basic primary hull of all the SFTM ships are identical, with the Connie possessing a secondary hull in addition to the saucer. As for the Connie to Refit-Connie comparison, that doesn't hold up either - the differences are far greater than between the Spru and Tico.

[stitch626]

As for WC, I could see it fitting fine in the connecting neck of the smaller ships. And the antimatter pods could fit in the saucer easily. Just lower the crew count (and amount of fuel).

[Atekimogus]

Read again, what he said is that the entire drive chain is contained in the nacelles. There is no warp core, anti-matter pods and all sorts of other things to squeeze in. Since every variant uses the same nacelles there is no need to squeeze anything anywhere.

Unfortunately that's not how the ships are arranged and things work by canon. Like it or not the way FJ postulated things to work isn't how they work. If you want them canon designs then somewhere in the primary hull they had to pack in all that equipment.

How can you know that? I cannot remember TOS showing us some of the equipment you describe like a huge warp core for instance, I therefore have no problem accepting that the TMP design of a huge warp core running almost through the whole ship is indeed a new design philosophy, one which justifies the massive refit we see.

No, I don't think anyone is. However some parts of the Connie that are in the secondary hull, like warp core, fuel, etc. have to go somewhere and if you want them to be canon ships then that isn't in the nacelles.

Why not? When push comes to shove in all honesty all ships are powered by magic since it is fiction and I have no problem whatsoever believing that at this time the m/am reactor was of much smaller scale and the largest component of the warp drive system were the engines. The NX-01 warp core was really small for example and there is no need to speculate about a huge core running through multiple decks like the one seen in the TMP connie when we never saw one or heard about one in the TOS connie.

There would be a similar design aesthetic of course. They aren't similar though, they are straight up cut and paste jobs from the Connie. The Miranda shares many similarities of the Connie, marking it as a contemporary and likely from the same group as who made the Connie.

Here follows a list of cut and paste parts of the connie. The saucer is the exactly the same, they just bolted a bit of space to it in the aft section. The nacelles are exactly the same. The torpedo tubes are the same altough bolted to a rollbar.
I like the miranda because it is also a sensible kitbash. But still it is a kitbash of connie-parts with the only difference the aft section and the rollbar and therefore I don't understand why you have such a problem with the FJ designs which aren't any better or worse.

[Deepcrush]

If you want to treat the ships as magic then you have to pretend that show doesn't exist. The fact that they mess up their science from time to time to time to... you get the point... its still a show based on science. There is no magic in ST. So you have to treat it as such or just not take part in the debate at all.

[Atekimogus]

Well my wording wasn't probably the best but please also read the rest of the sentence and do not nitpick on an unfortunatly chosen metaphor.

For your benefit here is the rest of the sentence again without the magic part:

I have no problem whatsoever believing that at this time the m/am reactor was of much smaller scale and the largest component of the warp drive system were the engines.

If you are of a different opinion and name reasons why you think there must be multiple deck warp core on TOS era ships I would be interested to hear it altough I think - not sure here - since we never saw such a thing it would be up to you to prove me wrong.

Also for your benefit a blueprint for a saladin class vessel. I know that such blueprints are absolutely not canon but it helps to illustrate how unbelievable big those nacelles are and why imho it is plausible that the whole drive chain is contained within them.

Saladin Blueprints

.

[Deepcrush]

My intention isn't to be involved with your debate. Only to point out that if you wish to debate a universe then do so within the universe and not with your opinion of it.

As to your reasoning, I read the whole thing and need nothing from you about it. Even less so a bunch of non-canon blue prints which are entirely worthless for a canon matter. But when you make a point that is part non-canon, part magic and part made up for your own thoughts then whatever else comes afterwards becomes meaningless as you've destroyed any hope of a point. You have to stick to the point, not make things up as you go along or you'll end up getting caught in a spiral. While I'm the most vocal about catching people on DITL for it, I'm by no means the only one. You're last two posts on here are the exact thing that would feed anyone who wants to break down you thoughts. Stick to the canon as there is canon to support your claims. Don't reach for non-canon answers.

For your benefit, I would suggest you use the Miranda scale to support your statements and not a non-canon ship.

[stitch626]

For your benefit, I would suggest you use the Miranda scale to support your statements and not a non-canon ship.

But we are discussing the feasability of the non-canon ships in the canon universe. Why shouldn't we then use their non-canon blueprints?

That said, those prints are slightly off. The nacelle of the Saladin was an exact cut and paste of the Constitution. And the Connie's nacelles were not that large.

[Atekimogus]

As to your reasoning, I read the whole thing and need nothing from you about it. Even less so a bunch of non-canon blue prints which are entirely worthless for a canon matter. But when you make a point that is part non-canon, part magic and part made up for your own thoughts then whatever else comes afterwards becomes meaningless as you've destroyed any hope of a point. You have to stick to the point, not make things up as you go along or you'll end up getting caught in a spiral. While I'm the most vocal about catching people on DITL for it, I'm by no means the only one. You're last two posts on here are the exact thing that would feed anyone who wants to break down you thoughts. Stick to the canon as there is canon to support your claims. Don't reach for non-canon answers.

So according to logic I should stick to canon when discussing ships which are arguable non-canon? Where have I said anything which is NOT canon? You said you read my post but I do doubt that since I explicitly stated that I gave those blueprints just as a reference as to how big the nacelles are and not to make a claim as to the accuracy of those blueprints.

The whole discussion was about the FJ designs, a few like them not, I find them quite nice and there was a discussion about how sensible they are. Now is there ANY reason to wave the canon flag?
The whole topic is Non-canon since according to you the only right answer to "What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?" is a simple :"Constitution class only up until TWoK". Now that would be a rather bland discussion, wouldn't it?

But as soon as someone says: "I know it is not canon but the FJ designs could give as a hint as to what could have been" we are drifting into the realm of technical manuals and background information and I see no reason why someone should scream "foul" when someone makes a non-canon assumption which itself doesn't contradict canon. If you feel otherwise I would be pleased to hear your reasoning.

You see I appreciate your concern about my points beeing shot down because you feel I violate canon statements (please point them out, I am not a Soong droid with the sum total knowledge of everything what is canon) but some other people made also some bold statements about the FJ designs without you complaining about it which does lead me to believe that you didn't follow the whole disussion.

That said, those prints are slightly off. The nacelle of the Saladin was an exact cut and paste of the Constitution. And the Connie's nacelles were not that large.

Is it far off? I didn't make a pixel comparison but I wouldn't have spotted it . Anyway it was just to point out that those things are freaking huge, nothing more

[stitch626]

Not too far off (but also not so little as to be a few pixels).
However, I think it would be more sensible to have the same tech we are used to (wc, antimatter pods, etc) in the main of the ship while the nacelle is the "cylinder", to use an automotive term. I see no reason whatsoever that the Saladin couldn't have all the needed systems in the saucer and neck.