Ship of the Week: Excelsior

[Jim]

The Galaxys shields are just to strong for the defieant to win. It would take a good few minutes for them to make a hole in them and by that time the GCS type X phasers would have ripped the defiant apart.

Just an observation... but if a Defiant couldn't win, or from the way it sounds even have a chance, against a Galaxy then it would have to be a complete 100% failure as a Borg fighter.

[Captain Seafort]

Just an observation... but if a Defiant couldn't win, or from the way it sounds even have a chance, against a Galaxy then it would have to be a complete 100% failure as a Borg fighter.

Why? If the Defiant is intended to take on cubes single-handed then sure, it's a very poor design because in isn't powerful enough. If, on the other hand, it's intended to be a mass-produced heavy fighter with a high power-to-mass ration, then it's a pretty good design. Given that the Defiant went into series production prior to the Dominion War, and we've seen them play a supporting role to an Akira in "Message in a Bottle", it seems likely that it's intended to perform the latter role.

[Deepcrush]

Wow did this whole thing just blow up.

My g/f was kind enough to read this last night and choose not to name names (though by her kick to my shin I think I was part of her list) and call a very many of us fools. As I go back and read everything I can't help but agree. I took cannon and used theory to make an opinion and someone took offense and by the end of it all I was fighting about it as if it WERE cannon. Between that and my being tired I failed to fully explain my thoughts on it all and got upset when people couldn't see what I see (Now this part was when I got to play the fool I'm sure). I'm going to restart and restate my meanings by all of this and then we can try this whole thing again.

My statement about the Lakota wiping the floor with a GCS. This is half bias for my love of the Excelsior class and theory for proper tactics to face a GCS with the other half being built off of weaknesses of the GCS vs. the abilities of the Lakota that have been seen. The abilities of the GCS and the Lakota are cannon, however the 'vs. mode' between them is built from my ideas and is not to be mistaken for cannon. If there are any thoughts or questions please let me know.

[Sionnach Glic]

Damn, I missed the whole debate!
Anyway....

Deep, you definitely got it in one there. While the Lakota is a powerful ship, there is simply no evidence that would put it at par with a Galaxy, or indicate whether it was.
At least it's still a far better design, though.

One thing particularly bugged me though, which I'll bring up now:

Insults are always the way to go on a loosing side.

No, they aren't. If someone said the sky was purple, and I called him all sorts of insults while showing him the sky was blue, would you conclude that I was losing the argument? No.
Deepcrush was wrong there, but how he chose to word his arguments are irrelevant.

[Deepcrush]

I found myself angry that no one notice the very first post I made that it was 'My theory based off of cannon' but not from cannon and then I lost my temper. There is a strong difference and I should have pointed that out rather then blowing a fuse. This is why I should not be posting if I haven't slept in a long while!

[Thorin]

No, they aren't. If someone said the sky was purple, and I called him all sorts of insults while showing him the sky was blue, would you conclude that I was losing the argument? No.
Deepcrush was wrong there, but how he chose to word his arguments are irrelevant.

Whatever.

[Thorin]

I found myself angry that no one notice the very first post I made that it was 'My theory based off of cannon'

My point all along was that there was no cannon basis - as I said, yes you made the theory, but it was crystalising around nothing.

[Deepcrush]

It was built around cannon but it required tactics that haven't been used in the show and so it falls out into the open. I used cannon to build my theory but sooner or later a theory will lose its link to cannon. Thats where I think the confusion set in. I never told anyone where that happened and so I'm thinking I may have made it look like there was no break at all. This is why I don't write stories, I'm not great with words.

[Thorin]

It was built around cannon but it required tactics that haven't been used in the show and so it falls out into the open. I used cannon to build my theory but sooner or later a theory will lose its link to cannon. Thats where I think the confusion set in. I never told anyone where that happened and so I'm thinking I may have made it look like there was no break at all. This is why I don't write stories, I'm not great with words.

But you claimed that the Lakota could wipe the floor with a Galaxy. By saying that - you're making a claim that sounds cannon, and that there is no other option. But the fact it is your theory [merely a guess] is fine. If you want to believe something or something else when no evidence is available is up to you - the problem was that it sounded like you were making a claim of cannon and didn't say that was just your opinion/theory.

And the fact you said the Defiant is more powerful than the Galaxy because it was built to face the Borg...

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Are there phaser turrets mounted on the Excelsior's connecting neck?

I think the ship looks cool.

[Deepcrush]

But you claimed that the Lakota could wipe the floor with a Galaxy. By saying that - you're making a claim that sounds cannon, and that there is no other option. But the fact it is your theory [merely a guess] is fine. If you want to believe something or something else when no evidence is available is up to you - the problem was that it sounded like you were making a claim of cannon and didn't say that was just your opinion/theory.

Like I said, I never told anyone where it broke from the two parts of cannon and my theory bridge began. A harsh error on my part to be sure. I'll write up some detailed combat analyses and show the two parts cannon and where my bridge ideas come into play. That would make a lot more sense then my thoughts that everyone can see tactical maps in their heads that I had thought up. Most people can't even read them, or understand them and then I was thinking that everyone could read the one in my head. A mind meld would have helped here!

And the fact you said the Defiant is more powerful than the Galaxy because it was built to face the Borg...

Wow, that one was just bad, no clue how right that one off. I was just that tired by then. You said the Sov-borg and I said Defiant-borg and then we were idiots dancing in the night.

That whole thing is funny now that I read it while awake! [/b]

[Tsukiyumi]

Just a question, does anyone remember whether the Lakota variant seemed to fire quantum torps faster than the standard Excelsior's photons?

Quantums have been shown to cause massive damage (especially in Nemesis, four of them blasted the Scimitar's cloak off-line through its shields), so these combined with the Excelsior's manuverability advantage might give it a chance to go toe to toe with a GCS.

Of course, this would require some tactics and skill...

They'd probably just cruise straight at each other firing everything they had...

[Deepcrush]

QTLs are more modern and the old PTLs have to be removed so but I would highly doubt that the Lakota is armed with rapid fire launchers. More likely an auto loader rack. The prime advantage of the lakota over the GCS is the QTs. These should be used to knock out power systems and weapons. In the mock battle I took out Rocheys warp core and PTLs as soon as I could then fired on him from long range with QTs where his phasers where less useful. The old starfleet charge in tactic would bring a quick death to the lakota as her shields just wouldn't last long against those type X's. It would be a very tricky battle and if the GCS got close and could stay there then the lakota would find itself in rubble.

[Tsukiyumi]

Indeed.

I was imagining targeting one of the warp nacelles. When those go, the Galaxy seems to blow to bits almost every time.

[Deepcrush]

If I was the Defiant I would but I would worry that the Lakota is to slow to keep a good lock. With her QTs I would target the warp core area. That would knoce out both of GCS PTLs and main power. That would also effect shields.