62.1 % of Bankrupticies caused by medical bills

[Tyyr]

I ignore what? The bullsh*t idea that people everywhere have awesome free access to education? Seriously?

Yeah, last time I checked you didn't get bill for attending anything between kindergarten and twelfth grade. In fact, it's sort of mandatory, they send the cops to your house if you don't go. You know that's what I meant, sort of like when you decided to take my comment from the first page to mean I thought people had learned to levitate.

If you managed it, good for you. It sure as f*ck isn't as simple as you're implying. Especially when you're disabled.

I'm not implying its simple or easy. I'm stating that it's there. It can be done. It's done by a lot of people. If it was as difficult as you imply there wouldn't be over three hundred thousand students in state universities in Florida alone. It's not the impossible wall you make it out to be.

[Sionnach Glic]

After looking up some stuff, it seems to me that "Medicare" is already universal healthcare, but purely for the elderly, correct? So why not just expand this system to cover the working class? Hell, that seems like the only group that isn't covered, for some unfathomable reason.

[Tsukiyumi]

Yeah, last time I checked you didn't get bill for attending anything between kindergarten and twelfth grade.

Nope. If you want to be accredited for anything beyond how to file paperwork properly, though, you'll need money to go to college.

In fact, it's sort of mandatory, they send the cops to your house if you don't go.

Is that a fact, you donkey? Is that why no one ever came to me except to tell me that I could pay $130 per class to test out of school? Easy enough. You have cash? No problem. Otherwise you're a "dropout".

You know that's what I meant, sort of like when you decided to take my comment from the first page to mean I thought people had learned to levitate

The "bootstraps" analogy is so flawed, I didn't really need to illustrate it any further.

If you managed it, good for you. It sure as f*ck isn't as simple as you're implying. Especially when you're disabled.

I'm not implying its simple or easy. I'm stating that it's there. It can be done. It's done by a lot of people. If it was as difficult as you imply there wouldn't be over three hundred thousand students in state universities in Florida alone. It's not the impossible wall you make it out to be.

Dude, I guarantee you if you spent one day with the same disabilities I have, you wouldn't sing that tune.

[Tyyr]

Nope. If you want to be accredited for anything beyond how to file paperwork properly, though, you'll need money to go to college.

Yes, you're going to need some college education. This country doesn't have much in the way of a manufacturing economy anymore so decent paying jobs taht don't require a higher education are few and far between.

Dude, I guarantee you if you spent one day with the same disabilities I have, you wouldn't sing that tune.

Ah, so my personal situation doesn't count, your's does? Even if you got screwed over your situation doesn't count any more than mine does in the discussion.

[Tsukiyumi]

Yes, you're going to need some college education. This country doesn't have much in the way of a manufacturing economy anymore so decent paying jobs taht don't require a higher education are few and far between.

And it would sure be great if we could keep pace with the rest of the industrialized countries on that.

Dude, I guarantee you if you spent one day with the same disabilities I have, you wouldn't sing that tune.

Ah, so my personal situation doesn't count, your's does? Even if you got screwed over your situation doesn't count any more than mine does in the discussion.

I'm not saying your situation doesn't count. I'd like to see how well anyone here could do if someone smashed their knees with a hammer. "doesn't count any more than mine does in the discussion". Hilarious.

I've been dealing with ACL injuries for 20 years because I couldn't afford to have it taken care of. It's a great example of how f*cked our system is. I wouldn't wish this injury on anyone. But I suppose you'll find some way to suggest that it's my fault, yes?

[Tyyr]

And it would sure be great if we could keep pace with the rest of the industrialized countries on that.

Like which countries? China? India? Where minimal education manufacturing jobs have gone?

"doesn't count any more than mine does in the discussion". Hilarious.

Not really, more just a statement of fact.

I've been dealing with ACL injuries for 20 years because I couldn't afford to have it taken care of. It's a great example of how f*cked our system is. I wouldn't wish this injury on anyone. But I suppose you'll find some way to suggest that it's my fault, yes?

Of course I will. The same way I've spent most of the thread refuting the daft insinuation that I blame everyone's misfortunes solely on them and make no allowances for some people just getting screwed over in life. Of course I wouldn't want what I've actually been saying to get in the way of what you wish I was so it'd be easier to demonize me and my position.

[stitch626]

Honestly, we shouldn't have to pay for collage (at least in NY state). Thats why6 whatshisname set up the NY lottery. The taxes from it were supposed to be used so that every person could have a free 4 years of collage.

[Sionnach Glic]

After looking up some stuff, it seems to me that "Medicare" is already universal healthcare, but purely for the elderly, correct? So why not just expand this system to cover the working class? Hell, that seems like the only group that isn't covered, for some unfathomable reason.

Yes, you're going to need some college education. This country doesn't have much in the way of a manufacturing economy anymore so decent paying jobs taht don't require a higher education are few and far between.

So, in effect, education is not free. Are we in agreement on this at last?

Ah, so my personal situation doesn't count, your's does? Even if you got screwed over your situation doesn't count any more than mine does in the discussion.

You're quite right. Your experience holds the same weight as anyone else's. Of course, while that means that Tsu's experience does not automaticaly invalidate yours, it also means that your experience does not change the fact that there are a lot of people whom the system is failing.

Of course I will. The same way I've spent most of the thread refuting the daft insinuation that I blame everyone's misfortunes solely on them and make no allowances for some people just getting screwed over in life. Of course I wouldn't want what I've actually been saying to get in the way of what you wish I was so it'd be easier to demonize me and my position.

Then what is your position? You've yet to provide any real reasons as to why privatised healthcare, which causes 62.1% of all bankruptcies per year, is better than paying slightly higher taxes.

Finaly, something for you to consider. Perhaps the fact that the majority of people in this thread see your position as "screw everyone else as long as I'm okay" is because that's what your position appears to be. I know you don't intend it, but your tone comes off as "it benefits me, so there's no reason to change it".

[Nickswitz]

wait, something someone said bothered me, in the US there are school taxes, they pay for our education, who woulda thought. That's why when the budget is voted on taxes change...

[Tyyr]

So, in effect, education is not free. Are we in agreement on this at last?

In the sense that the free education you get (and yes a bit of everyone's taxes goes to pay for it) is not sufficient to go out and get any job you please, yes.

You're quite right. Your experience holds the same weight as anyone else's. Of course, while that means that Tsu's experience does not automaticaly invalidate yours, it also means that your experience does not change the fact that there are a lot of people whom the system is failing.

And again, I do not dispute that. In fact the only part of my own experience that I've brought into this was the statement in regards to my student loan payments, made in order to put some persepective on the burden imposed by using student loans to help finance your education. Prior to that anything regarding my personal experience was brought in by other parties. I don't claim my personal experience hasn't colored my opinions of things it has.

Then what is your position? You've yet to provide any real reasons as to why privatised healthcare, which causes 62.1% of all bankruptcies per year, is better than paying slightly higher taxes.

If you review the end of the first page of the thread this discussion drifted off the original topic. However, given the fact that we don't have any damn details about what exactly a nationalized healthcare plan is going to entail, in the United States, I remain highly, highly skeptical that my government which is made up of vote whoring prostitutes interspersed with incompetant appointees who just knew which ass to kiss will be able to take the reigns of healthcare without royally fucking it up. Social Security became the third rail of American politics because it became used as a weapon in poltical battles, a hot button issue, just say your opponent was going to take it away and rake in the votes as people panic. It's to the point now where the system is fucked but no one can dare reform it or face losing an election because their opponent frames what they want to do as "Cuts". I can see healthcare going the same way and frankly I don't want to see my family's health becoming part of a political tug of war.

Finaly, something for you to consider. Perhaps the fact that the majority of people in this thread see your position as "screw everyone else as long as I'm okay" is because that's what your position appears to be. I know you don't intend it, but your tone comes off as "it benefits me, so there's no reason to change it".

Lemme be brutally honest. I think most of the people in this thread, and several others don't care for my position. They see me responding, get automatically defensive and assume the worst. They read what I say, take it to an extreme beyond what any rational person would actually believe, then spit it back in my face as if that's what I said. That's the way it seems to me.

As for my attitude, it's called being conservative for a reason. I see a problem and my first reaction isn't to scrap the whole system and try something completely different (though in several areas I do think that approach is warranted at this point). I don't see people making a profit in medicine as a problem. Captialism has a wonderful method for dealing with people who don't meet the consumers expectations, they fold. The problem to me appears to be that in our lawsuit happy culture everyone from the drug companies to the FDA to doctors to hospitals has to spend so much time, money, and effort to cover their own asses that the cost of care has been driven up not by doctors but by lawyers. The biggest impediment to fixing all that being that the politicians who could change it... are all lawyers.

[Sionnach Glic]

In the sense that the free education you get (and yes a bit of everyone's taxes goes to pay for it) is not sufficient to go out and get any job you please, yes.

Aye, that's what I was getting at.

If you review the end of the first page of the thread this discussion drifted off the original topic. However, given the fact that we don't have any damn details about what exactly a nationalized healthcare plan is going to entail, in the United States, I remain highly, highly skeptical that my government which is made up of vote whoring prostitutes interspersed with incompetant appointees who just knew which ass to kiss will be able to take the reigns of healthcare without royally f***ing it up.

Every government is composed of those exact same types, yet many European countries and Canada manage it just fine.

Social Security became the third rail of American politics because it became used as a weapon in poltical battles, a hot button issue, just say your opponent was going to take it away and rake in the votes as people panic. It's to the point now where the system is f***ed but no one can dare reform it or face losing an election because their opponent frames what they want to do as "Cuts". I can see healthcare going the same way and frankly I don't want to see my family's health becoming part of a political tug of war.

I reall don't know anything on the subject, so I'll take your word on that.
So if I'm reading you right, the problem isn't the concept itself but the fear that it'll just end up being massively fucked up, correct?

Lemme be brutally honest. I think most of the people in this thread, and several others don't care for my position. They see me responding, get automatically defensive and assume the worst. They read what I say, take it to an extreme beyond what any rational person would actually believe, then spit it back in my face as if that's what I said. That's the way it seems to me.

Alright.

Here's the thing, I think it's a all a knee-jerk reaction from us. You have to admit yourself, the majority of the defenders of the current US system are of the "fuck everyone else as long as I'm fine" breed. As such, when someone comes in defending the system people automaticaly assume they're of the same type. It's stupid, but there it is. So I apoligise if I've offended you.

As for my attitude, it's called being conservative for a reason. I see a problem and my first reaction isn't to scrap the whole system and try something completely different (though in several areas I do think that approach is warranted at this point). I don't see people making a profit in medicine as a problem. Captialism has a wonderful method for dealing with people who don't meet the consumers expectations, they fold.

That only works when consumers have full choice to buy their services. In this case, they don't. They may not be able to afford better. Their job may stick them with a certain company. No other company may cover them if they have one of those "pre-existing conditions", which may have developed while you were with the shitty company in question.

The problem with the US insurance companies is that quite a few people are effectively stuck with the company they're with. If what you said was true, do you think there'd be the slew of problems there already is with them? They're all rotten, and survive purely because the alternatives are either just as bad or inaccesable for various reasons.

Now, let's introduce a state-run system into the mix. The insurance companies don't have to dissappear, they're still around. Except now everyone does have an alternative to putting up with them. Said companies see their profits start to drop like a brick as people desert them for the state-run system. Now the truly rotten companies fold completely, while the remainders are forced to boost their quality of care and remove the BS restrictions around them. So even if you stick with the private insurers, things end up better for you overall.

The problem to me appears to be that in our lawsuit happy culture everyone from the drug companies to the FDA to doctors to hospitals has to spend so much time, money, and effort to cover their own asses that the cost of care has been driven up not by doctors but by lawyers. The biggest impediment to fixing all that being that the politicians who could change it... are all lawyers.

I know that countries with socialised healthcare have found a way around the whole malpractice thing. I'll try and find the info out for you.

[Tyyr]

Every government is composed of those exact same types, yet many European countries and Canada manage it just fine.

I think we can all agree that not everyone is the same and thinks the same ways though. While it might work great in Europe or Canada that's with Europeans and Canadians. Call me unpatriotic but I don't have an immense feeling of good will about my countrymen and their motivations. Also our political systems are quite a bit different. I think the US's two party system can cause a lot of problems that you might not run into in a coalition style system. Over here you've got two real choices, so there's not exactly a lot of shopping around when it comes to candidates.

I reall don't know anything on the subject, so I'll take your word on that.
So if I'm reading you right, the problem isn't the concept itself but the fear that it'll just end up being massively f***ed up, correct?

I'm not wild about the idea of the government taking over health care just on the fact that I dislike it any time the government assumes more power. However, yes, from a day to day concern the biggest issue I have is that they'll turn it into a fucking trainwreck and once Washington gets its claws into something you're not getting it back. I'm not stupid enough to pretend there are a lot of services that government now provides that were never originally intended by the founders or that them being public services isn't a better system, cops, firemen, education, etc. However I would point out the incredible amount of bitching directed at at least two of those institutions.

Alright.

Here's the thing, I think it's a all a knee-jerk reaction from us. You have to admit yourself, the majority of the defenders of the current US system are of the "f**k everyone else as long as I'm fine" breed. As such, when someone comes in defending the system people automaticaly assume they're of the same type. It's stupid, but there it is. So I apoligise if I've offended you.

You'll find me exceptionally hard to offend. At this point it's been mostly annoyance that I can't have an honest discussion of issues without having to constantly point out that I've never said anything that people keep tossing back at me.

And yes, the loudest voices on the conservative side right now are a bunch of fucking idiots. I'm rather disgusted with my own party and side right now.

That only works when consumers have full choice to buy their services. In this case, they don't. They may not be able to afford better. Their job may stick them with a certain company. No other company may cover them if they have one of those "pre-existing conditions", which may have developed while you were with the shitty company in question.

The problem with the US insurance companies is that quite a few people are effectively stuck with the company they're with. If what you said was true, do you think there'd be the slew of problems there already is with them? They're all rotten, and survive purely because the alternatives are either just as bad or inaccesable for various reasons.

Now, let's introduce a state-run system into the mix. The insurance companies don't have to dissappear, they're still around. Except now everyone does have an alternative to putting up with them. Said companies see their profits start to drop like a brick as people desert them for the state-run system. Now the truly rotten companies fold completely, while the remainders are forced to boost their quality of care and remove the BS restrictions around them. So even if you stick with the private insurers, things end up better for you overall.

Personally I think when it comes right down to it you're still dealing with a symptom of the bigger problem. What makes it so that only the giants can get involved in insurance? Cost. With lawsuits driving shit through the roof even a basic procedure can cost tens of thousands of dollars. With that kind of cost, the market starts to lock up as the bar to get into the game just keeps getting higher. Eventually the market gets to the point where alternatives can't get in.

Now, if a state run system enters the mix like that. Where it competes on the open market with private insurers and participation and payment for the state run system is optional. In other words you stay with a private insurer and pay their premiums and are exempt from any new medical care related tax hike. That I can live with.

Right now though we have no idea what the actual plan is. Unlike many people the word "change" with no specifics doesn't encourage me.

I know that countries with socialised healthcare have found a way around the whole malpractice thing. I'll try and find the info out for you.

I'll be very interested to see this.

[Sionnach Glic]

I think we can all agree that not everyone is the same and thinks the same ways though. While it might work great in Europe or Canada that's with Europeans and Canadians. Call me unpatriotic but I don't have an immense feeling of good will about my countrymen and their motivations. Also our political systems are quite a bit different. I think the US's two party system can cause a lot of problems that you might not run into in a coalition style system. Over here you've got two real choices, so there's not exactly a lot of shopping around when it comes to candidates.

So you believe that your political system precludes any real chance of it succeeding?
I'll have to let other Americans speak on that, since my knowledge of US politics ends at "Republicans = far-right, Democrats = slightly less right".

I'm not wild about the idea of the government taking over health care just on the fact that I dislike it any time the government assumes more power. However, yes, from a day to day concern the biggest issue I have is that they'll turn it into a f***ing trainwreck and once Washington gets its claws into something you're not getting it back. I'm not stupid enough to pretend there are a lot of services that government now provides that were never originally intended by the founders or that them being public services isn't a better system, cops, firemen, education, etc. However I would point out the incredible amount of bitching directed at at least two of those institutions.

Again, I can't really speak on that. So again I'll take your word on it.

You'll find me exceptionally hard to offend. At this point it's been mostly annoyance that I can't have an honest discussion of issues without having to constantly point out that I've never said anything that people keep tossing back at me.

Alright then.

And yes, the loudest voices on the conservative side right now are a bunch of f***ing idiots. I'm rather disgusted with my own party and side right now.

To be honest, I sometimes wonder why you're with the. It seems that you take the opposite stance to them on just about everything.

Personally I think when it comes right down to it you're still dealing with a symptom of the bigger problem. What makes it so that only the giants can get involved in insurance? Cost. With lawsuits driving s**t through the roof even a basic procedure can cost tens of thousands of dollars. With that kind of cost, the market starts to lock up as the bar to get into the game just keeps getting higher. Eventually the market gets to the point where alternatives can't get in.

So the high costs are due to the doctors needing to insure themselves against malpractice sueing?

I'll be very interested to see this.

I think I know where I saw it last. I'll look it up and get back to you on that. If not tonight, then tommorrow morning.

[Atekimogus]

Okay I came a bit late into the thread but I never really understood why obligatory health care is such a hot topic in the US.

It works quite well in most of the EU and I see no reason why it couldn't work also in the US or why this would be a bad thing. Or do you think once all got insurance no one will want to work anymore?

[Tsukiyumi]

About the "sue happy" part, here's some interesting reading:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

Maybe if the inept jackasses weren't creating a f*cking holocaust here, there wouldn't be so many lawsuits...