62.1 % of Bankrupticies caused by medical bills

[Tsukiyumi]

People violate the laws of physics? I'll have to google that.

[Aaron]

If you ignore the fact that people still do it, yeah, it's not possible.

Are you defective in some mental capacity? The argument isn't that it can be done, of course it can. The argument is that it isn't as easy as your countries propaganda (read the GOPs) makes it out to be but we'll just ignore that massive lower class of minorities and disaffected poor. The make your argument weak after all.

[Tyyr]

Are you defective in some mental capacity? The argument isn't that it can be done, of course it can. The argument is that it isn't as easy as your countries propaganda (read the GOPs) makes it out to be but we'll just ignore that massive lower class of minorities and disaffected poor. The make your argument weak after all.

No, as a matter of fact I'm not. I do like that since I disagree with you I'm "mentally defective." I never said it was easy, and I don't think anyone would claim it is. It requires busting your ass to do it. It's damn difficult.

Massive lower class? Disaffected poor? They make my argument weak how? My argument is that it's possible and people do it, not that everyone does it.

"f**k you, I've got mine!"

Better not get seriously ill buddy.

No, the attitude is "I look after me and mine and can't afford to look after everyone else."

[Aaron]

No, as a matter of fact I'm not. I do like that since I disagree with you I'm "mentally defective." I never said it was easy, and I don't think anyone would claim it is. It requires busting your ass to do it. It's damn difficult.

Then if it's difficult why should the government not help you do it?

Massive lower class? Disaffected poor? They make my argument weak how? My argument is that it's possible and people do it, not that everyone does it.

You argued that it could be done, I'm arguing that the current system makes it harder.

No, the attitude is "I look after me and mine and can't afford to look after everyone else."

Bullshit, the current system costs more then both the UK and Canada's both in insurance costs and tax dollars. Frankly Americans get off extremely light in regards to taxes and it's incredibly amusing to watch the bitching even over increases that will directly benefit them.

[Lazar]

My argument is that it's possible and people do it, not that everyone does it.

It's possible in some cases. To say that every poor person has a conceivable shot at prosperity, and that they're staying poor only because of their own lack of initiative, is a fantastical argument from ideology.

No, the attitude is "I look after me and mine and can't afford to look after everyone else."

The attitude that gave us the private fire services of the 19th century. In any case, universal health care is cheaper than a private system. As I've pointed out before, the US spends a higher percentage of GDP on health care than any other developed nation, with mediocre results to show for it. If we had a single-payer plan, the people would be paying less in new taxes than they do for insurance premiums today.

---

Of course, we should all bear in mind that this is a complete retread of an argument that's already been had.

[Tyyr]

Then if it's difficult why should the government not help you do it?

Because they already help more than enough. Free education for everyone. A entire network of state supported secondary colleges. Student loans for the asking. What more are they supposed to do?

You argued that it could be done, I'm arguing that the current system makes it harder.

The current system makes it possible.

Bullshit, the current system costs more then both the UK and Canada's both in insurance costs and tax dollars. Frankly Americans get off extremely light in regards to taxes and it's incredibly amusing to watch the bitching even over increases that will directly benefit them.

So what if we get off light in taxes? Because other people in the world pay higher tax rates we should gladly do the same? As for universal health care, I have no faith at all that giving health care over to the government will make anything better.

It's possible in some cases. To say that every poor person has a conceivable shot at prosperity, and that they're staying poor only because of their own lack of initiative, is a fantastical argument from ideology.

And I said that where? Some people don't have a shot, I'll accept that. However to pretend that every poor person is "enslaved" to someone with no hope of ever doing better is just as ridiculous a claim.

[Bryan Moore]

Sad but not shocking. My father had a series of massive heart attacks and quad bypass in April of 2006. The hospital bill for the stay alone came to $110,000 for 11 days. Add in the surgery, consultation, and the like, and it was nearly a quarter million. Insurance paid all but $2500 or something. But even THAT would put some families over the edge. We were lucky, others not so much.

While teaching a domestic policy course last year, we spent about 2 weeks on the healthcare system in America. While your choices are wonderful, it was an unmistakeable conclusion that a vast majority of the students wouldn't be able to properly cover even common medical costs if they were uninsured.

In a real life example, a friend of a friend (who I'd met many times and played music with on occasion) passed away due to untreated asthma in his sleep. A strait edge, wonderful man, as a self-employed studio musician, he didn't have insurance and couldn't afford the expensive asthma treatment. My buddy found him dead one morning.

It's really unfortunate, and as much as Americans are to blame for their foolish spending, the price of medical treatment is awful.

To play my own small violin, my antidepressant medication costs $25 a month with my insurance, which is nothing. Without it, it would be $250. Once my dose goes up, that cost will be $40 and $400. If you took my dad's medicines without insurance, it'd be more like $1500/mo.

[Aaron]

Because they already help more than enough. Free education for everyone. A entire network of state supported secondary colleges. Student loans for the asking. What more are they supposed to do?

And if their too poor to take advantage of any of this thanks to medical bills, how does any of that help.

The current system makes it possible.

It's still more difficult then it has to be. Possible, not probable.

So what if we get off light in taxes? Because other people in the world pay higher tax rates we should gladly do the same? As for universal health care, I have no faith at all that giving health care over to the government will make anything better.

Yes, you should. Look at the services available to me in Canada and look at what you get and then look at the rest of the first worlds services and where you rank in there. And frankly if you think the government can't do better then consider that the American system is designed to generate a profit, there by guaranteeing it's more expensive. Universal systems are designed to deliver medical care. Full stop.

[Tsukiyumi]

And I said that where? Some people don't have a shot, I'll accept that. However to pretend that every poor person is "enslaved" to someone with no hope of ever doing better is just as ridiculous a claim.

Of course it would be. However, just because a few people have better opportunities, and are able to succeed doesn't change that the vast majority do no have those opportunities.

And, what's this "free education" BS? I applied for a number of "loans" (which means "not free", BTW), and was denied every time.

[Aaron]

To play my own small violin, my antidepressant medication costs $25 a month with my insurance, which is nothing. Without it, it would be $250. Once my dose goes up, that cost will be $40 and $400. If you took my dad's medicines without insurance, it'd be more like $1500/mo.

Just to provide a contrast, my wife's anti-depressants are the same price with my insurance but only 100$ without it. That's because drugs are both regulated her and subsidized and pharmacies are required by law to offer and fill with generic brands if they are available (drug patents only last ten years here).

[Aaron]

Of course it would be. However, just because a few people have better opportunities, and are able to succeed doesn't change that the vast majority do no have those opportunities.

And, what's this "free education" BS? I applied for a number of "loans" (which means "not free", BTW), and was denied every time.

He pulled a nice "bait and switch" there. Free! Oh, can you fill out this loan app?

[Sionnach Glic]

Because they already help more than enough. Free education for everyone. A entire network of state supported secondary colleges. Student loans for the asking. What more are they supposed to do?

Ah, so students don't come out of college with a shitload of debt hanging over their heads? Funny, because that's what I'd heard.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that your position is "all poor people are only poor because they didn't work hard enough, so screw them".

[Tyyr]

Ah, so students don't come out of college with a shitload of debt hanging over their heads? Funny, because that's what I'd heard.

If you'll notice I had the phrase "student loans" in there. As for how much, depends on how you do it. If you use student loans to fund everything from living arrangements to food to classes yeah the bill's gonna be a bitch. Go to state school of a state you don't live in, yeah its gonna be a bitch. I paid for most of my classes with student loans and worked two jobs to cover the rest. My student loan payments are $170 a month. That's not exactly crushing debt.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that your position is "all poor people are only poor because they didn't work hard enough, so screw them".

Yes, you're wrong. Like I said about ten posts ago, things happen, people get screwed, but pretending that everyone who's poor is only that way because they're being oppressed by the system is just as ridiculous a claim as the one you seem to think I support.

And if their too poor to take advantage of any of this thanks to medical bills, how does any of that help.

That portion of the discussion seemed to have left the medical bills part of the discussion behind but alright. Frankly not a lot if you're really buried under those kind of medical bills.

It's still more difficult then it has to be. Possible, not probable.

And I completely disagree with that statement. With about a quarter million undergrads and ~55 thousand grad students enrolled in the Florida state university system alone I think it could be safe to say that people probably manage to do it and a pretty regular basis.

Yes, you should. Look at the services available to me in Canada and look at what you get and then look at the rest of the first worlds services and where you rank in there. And frankly if you think the government can't do better then consider that the American system is designed to generate a profit, there by guaranteeing it's more expensive. Universal systems are designed to deliver medical care. Full stop.

Yes, as someone who's lived with and dealt with the US government his entire life I have zero faith that the situation will improve once the collection of assholes in Washington wind up in charge of it. As for profits, as a capitalist I don't have much of a problem with people who have invested a great deal of time, money, and effort into getting training, getting the facilities, and creating the medicines needed making a profit from it. Of all the issues with the US medical system making a profit is done the list of issues, the first of which I'd place as lawsuits and the resultant insurance needed to protect against them. I ask this honestly because I don't know, are people allowed to sue the state run medical system in Canada if they think the Doctor's screwed the pooch on something?

He pulled a nice "bait and switch" there. Free! Oh, can you fill out this loan app?

No, I didn't. Your primary education is free. Secondary isn't. Since you're from Canada yeah I should have phrased that better. Given that Tsuki is from the US he knew what I meant and like several other times willfully ignores it.

[Sionnach Glic]

If you'll notice I had the phrase "student loans" in there. As for how much, depends on how you do it. If you use student loans to fund everything from living arrangements to food to classes yeah the bill's gonna be a bitch. Go to state school of a state you don't live in, yeah its gonna be a bitch. I paid for most of my classes with student loans and worked two jobs to cover the rest. My student loan payments are $170 a month. That's not exactly crushing debt.

It may not be crushing for you, but there are families out there that would struggle to pay that.

Yes, you're wrong. Like I said about ten posts ago, things happen, people get screwed, but pretending that everyone who's poor is only that way because they're being oppressed by the system is just as ridiculous a claim as the one you seem to think I support.

No, not all poor are being oppressed by the system. Nowhere did I ever state that. But the poor are being denied quality health care purely because of their financial status. I consider that moraly reprehensible.

[Tsukiyumi]

Given that Tsuki is from the US he knew what I meant and like several other times willfully ignores it.

I ignore what? The bullsh*t idea that people everywhere have awesome free access to education? Seriously?

If you managed it, good for you. It sure as f*ck isn't as simple as you're implying. Especially when you're disabled.