Paul Tibbets dies

[Mikey]

You're right (of course) Seafort, but I meant scale as far as technology in use. The point I was trying to make is that people go nuts over Hiroshima and Nagasaki because of the type of munition used, and forget that it was merely a pretty sound wartime decision, and no more brutal than many other attacks during the war - and much less so had the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki NOT succeeded.

BTW, was the Grand Slam this controversial on the UK side?

[Captain Seafort]

In my experience, even knowing that Grand Slam existed is a sign that the individual in question has better than average knowlege of WW2/military equipment. Besides the fact that GS had a tiny yield compared to a nuke, it was conventional explosives - no radiation, magic death rays or the like, and therefore OK. The long-term effects of radiation and fallout contribute almost as much to the taboo nature of nuclear weapons as their sheer destructive potential.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

It's been said before, but I would like to add my disgust that he would even have to fear reprisals against his final resting place because of hypocritical TOS-violations.

[Monroe]

I've heard some very intelligent (normally) people argue that an invasion would have been better and to me its just nuts to even considering doing an invasion instead.

The amount of deaths for a Japanese invasion would have been from 4-15 million I've heard. Maybe worse. Problem is that history as its taught now in a lot of America and in Japan is that the Japanese were close to surrendering anyway and the bombs were a waste.

What's really weird is the Kamakazi winds happened the same day as the proposed invasion was to take place, just like it happened to the Mongolians.

[Sionnach Glic]

*sigh*

I too have run into people claiming an invasion would have been better. These people usualy have no idea of the situation at that time. Japan wouldn't have surrendered, they would have fought like mad and killed millions.

[Captain Seafort]

I suspect that sort of irrationality is caused by a) nuclear weapons produce radiation, and people killed by radiation are obviously more dead than those killed by bullets/bombs, etc and b) it's far worse for tens of thousands to die at once than for millions to die over the course of months.

[Sionnach Glic]

That's exactly the problem. I don't know why, but there's a huge stigma around anything nuclear.

[Mikey]

That is the heart of the irrationality surrounding the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks. And you're right Seafort in saying that the Grand Slam was "only" a conventional munition - I'm having a brain lapse, and I can't remember the name of the BRILLIANT British explosives designer who developed the Grand Slam, dam-buster, etc.; but it scares me a little bit that someone could wrench that sort of destructive capability from "only" a conventional explosive.

[Captain Seafort]

Barnes Wallis - he designed Upkeep (the bouncing bomb, basically a depth charge with a fancy release mechanism), Highball (an anti-ship version of Upkeep, never used in action), Tallboy (5-ton earthquake bomb), Grand Slam (10-ton earthquake bomb), and the Wellington and Victory bombers (the latter never got off the drawing board.

There was nothing magical about the earthquake bombs - they simply contained a lot of HE. The reason they were so effective was because they were designed to penetrate several dozen feet unerground before detonating, and the resulting shock brought down the structures around it.

[Mikey]

Thank you. I knew if anyone remembered the name, it would be you, Seafort.

BTW - I'm not familiar with the name Upkeep, but if that is the same as the water-skipping dam-buster, it has to be one of the great innovations of WWII, when one considers the amazxingly little amount of time Wallis had to design it.

[Captain Seafort]

"Upkeep" was the bomb's official code-name. IIRC, Wallis had been studying the problem of how to breach the Ruhr dams since before the war. Plan A was an Earthquake bomb that was later developed into Tallboy and Grand Slam, along with the Victory bomber to carry it. When the Air Ministry threw that out, he went to plan B, using a modified depth charge, spun backwards to get it to skip off the water, roll down the face of the dam, and use the mass of water to focus th explosion against the dam. This was all on Wallis' own initiative, and when Bomber Harris heard about it and liked it, Operation Chastise was launched. The tricky bit wasn't the concept, but the execution. The attackers had to release the weapon at a precise range and altitude, with the bomb spinning at exactly the right rpm. Get them wrong and the bomb would either sink before it reached the dam, skip ovet it, or pop up and take the tail off the aircraft. Ultimately, while this worked against the Moehne and Eider dams, the third target - the Sorpe - was an earth, rather than a wall dam, and the Upkeeps barely scratched it. Against the Sorpe, the Tallboys would have been far more effective, but by the time they were in service the "Battle of the Ruhr" was over, and the bombers had shifted to other targets.

[Monroe]

If Call of Duty 5 needs an idea on where to place the setting an alternate history with the invasion of Japan would be great