On Americans, Europeans, and Political Ideology

[Aaron]

I'm not American but I vote based on the parties platform at the time (we have four serious parties to choose from), so it could be the Liberals, PC, NDP or BQ (if I lived in Quebec and was a traitor to the crown). I voted NDP last time and have voted Liberal and PC in the past. It depends purely on what the platform is and what (if any) I have to give up in exchange for something better.

For whatever reason, politics in Canada doesn't attract the almost god-like following that it does elsewhere. We seem to think of it as a necessary PITA and politicians something to be merely tolerated, rather then venerated. When Bush was being constantly praised after 9/11, Afghanistan and Iraq, I was really, really uncomfortable with it. Same with Obama.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'm not American but I vote based on the parties platform at the time (we have four serious parties to choose from), so it could be the Liberals, PC, NDP or BQ (if I lived in Quebec and was a traitor to the crown). I voted NDP last time and have voted Liberal and PC in the past. It depends purely on what the platform is and what (if any) I have to give up in exchange for something better.

Same here. My votes tend to go towards whicever party seems to be supporting the policies I want implemented at the time. For example, Fianna Gael has said they plan on implementing a univeral health care system if they get in, so my vote's going towards them in the next election.

For whatever reason, politics in Canada doesn't attract the almost god-like following that it does elsewhere. We seem to think of it as a necessary PITA and politicians something to be merely tolerated, rather then venerated

I think it's the same in most countries. As far as most Europeans are concerned, all politicians are lying crooks, and we just choose the best of the bad lot to lead us.

. When Bush was being constantly praised after 9/11, Afghanistan and Iraq, I was really, really uncomfortable with it. Same with Obama.

Among Western nations, that seems to be a purely American phenomenon. Nowhere else do I see such an inexplicable following of a nation's leader. Hell, even the British royal family doesn't get that.
I remember once raeding a thread on SDN where one of the American members was sending a letter to the president. It was....weird. It had a sort of "your majesty" air about it.

So to throw a question at the American members, what's up with that?

[Tyyr]

We seem to have a cult of fame going over here. Famous people, of any type, seem to have groups gravitate to them and nearly worship them. Singers, politicians, movie stars, even nobody's who manage to weasel their way onto a reality show.

I'm a pretty staunch Republican (who has voted for democrats and independents before on many occasions) who on the whole thinks Bush did pretty well but even I'll point out quite a few places where they seriously screwed up.

[Mikey]

Very true. The cult of personality has grown very deep roots over here. The most charismatic politicians have become celebrities no less than movie stars - JFK, for example. While this sets those people up as targets, it also sets them up on some sort of pedestal in public opinion. Perhaps our particular brand of republicanism (I mean republican democracy, not the political party) separates the populace from the politician enough to engender that idea

[Sionnach Glic]

Yeah, we just don't get that over here. Why, do you think, that is?

For example, our former Taoiseach (Prime Minister) used to go down to his local pub for a drink over weekends, and nobody would even take much notice that he'd walked into the room. On one occasion I even bumped (almost litteraly) into our president while she was shopping in some clothes store (Arnots, I believe). As with the PM, no one was bothering her (and it was hardly because of the security, she only had a couple of suited guys hanging around nearby).

[Mikey]

American political success seems to be based as much on charisma and exposure than on ability and ideology. I don't know whether that's a symptom of the issue you describe, or a cause. Either way, a candidate must make a celebrity of himself in order to be successful, and that star doesn't fade too easily.

I don't know if it's related, but there is a huge epidemic of "Not My Fault" syndrome in America. Addicted to alcohol or drugs? It's not your fault. Morbidly obese? It's not your fault. Etc. It's some Jungian memory of prior discrimination to your ancestors (that you didn't even know about,) or your father didn't hug you enough, or you couldn't do well in school because of some hypothetical and unproven learning disability that someone just made up, or whatever. In terms of national policy, our politicians become scapegoats for all the things in which we can't be bothered to take an active role. Don't like what happened in Iraq? It's much easier to say that it's the Bush administration's fault than America's fault. Etc., etc., etc. It's a lot more difficult to do that when there is no separation between ourselves and our scapegoats.

[Tyyr]

American political success seems to be based as much on charisma and exposure than on ability and ideology.

I don't think that's ever been more true.

[Praeothmin]

so it could be the Liberals, PC, NDP or BQ (if I lived in Quebec and was a traitor to the crown).

I voted BQ only once in my life, when I was younger and felt that Quebec's importance in Canada wasn't recognized enough for my taste.
The I matured, and realized that we had to demonstrate what we could bring to Canada, and our importance would then be recognized.
That has happened over the years, but everytime I feel we are progressing, the BQ rears its ugly head, and makes the rest of Canada hate us again...

I haven't voted for the BQ since, nor do I intend to, I don't want to leave Canada (even though I care nothing for the Queen), I simply am proud to be a Canadian.
Although these days, with Harper seemingly becoming our own version of Bush (with brains, though), I'm still proud to be Canadian, just less proud of whom I voted for...

I voted NDP last time

You do know they'r staunch BQ allies these days, don't you...

[Sionnach Glic]

BQ is that nutball seperatist party, yes?

[Monroe]

Only cause I read the last thread do I have a clue who BQ is. Can we use words instead of a few letters?
And sometimes it is our politician's faults. Your Iraqi example is one of those cases. Far as Bush's approval ratings I thought he did a fairly good job immediately after 9/11 in taking action. He sucked prior to 9/11 and when he turned his sights on Iraq he sucked yet again. But for a little while he was a good commander and chief.

This isn't a strictly American phenomenon though. Hell look at Napoleon with the lowest approval ratings of 400:1 in favor of one of his bills. That's just incredible. Bush and Obama both would have loved to have only one out of four hundred be opposed to something they're doing.

[Sionnach Glic]

Far as Bush's approval ratings I thought he did a fairly good job immediately after 9/11 in taking action.

I have to disagree with you there. At a time when the entire planet's sympathy lay with America, Bush managed to alienate and infuriate the vast majority of countries that were allied with him.

This isn't a strictly American phenomenon though. Hell look at Napoleon with the lowest approval ratings of 400:1 in favor of one of his bills. That's just incredible. Bush and Obama both would have loved to have only one out of four hundred be opposed to something they're doing.

Hey, I never claimed shitty politicians are purely US-owned.

[Monroe]

Far as Bush's approval ratings I thought he did a fairly good job immediately after 9/11 in taking action.

I have to disagree with you there. At a time when the entire planet's sympathy lay with America, Bush managed to alienate and infuriate the vast majority of countries that were allied with him.

I don't think he began to alienate until he started his vendetta against Iraq. When he was dealing with just Afghanistan I think most people were with him, right?

[Sionnach Glic]

Yes and no. While people certainly supported bombing the shit out of the Taliban (I actualy have a clear memory of driving down a road and noticing the car ahead of me had a "Skin Bin" sticker on the back), they were pissed big time at Bush. Iraq merely confirmed what everyone over here thought about him.

[Monroe]

Well I'm talking just about the response to the Taliban. The USS Cole gets hit and what does Clinton do? Fire two cruise missiles at them. 9/11 happens and the US does in 2 months what the Soviet Union couldn't ever quite do. We royally kicked some asses there. It wasn't until the Iraq episode of Bush that things began to fall apart in Afghanistan. I bet you if we didn't go into Iraq and Katrina never happened than Bush would still be a president people 'wanted a beer with' and could relate to with high approval ratings.

[Tsukiyumi]

Other than the Iraq war, what did Bush do post-9/11 that had everyone pissed off, again? I must've missed something.