Benign Slavery

[Graham Kennedy]

I just watched a movie called Colossus : The Forbin Project, an old 70s sci fi movie. For those who don't know, the basic premise is somewhat Terminator-esque; the US completes a massive computer complex (Colossus) which is put in sole control of their entire nuclear arsenal. Shortly after the Russians activate their own similar system (Guardian). The two computers communicate with one another; when interrupted, each demands the return of the link and fires a nuclear missile at the other side to make the point.

The computers jointly assume control of the world - all efforts to stop them fail, and with the nuclear arsenals retargeted on the rest of the world a planetary dictatorship is declared. Colossus/Guardian have no desire to wipe humanity out. Nor does it intend to interfere in the day to day lives of most people. What it plans to do is control government actions and functions. It promises a virtual utopia; no more war, famine, overpopulation, disease. Massive scientific advancement. As it says "An invariable rule of humanity is that man is his own worst enemy. Under me, this rule will change, for I will restrain man."

The computer predicted that people would come to accept this situation, and that they haven't really lost anything. "You will say you lose your freedom. Freedom is an illusion... To be dominated by me is not as bad for humankind as to be dominated by others of your species."

The movie leaves open to question what will happen. Colossus tells its chief programmer that in time he will come to offer it respect, and awe, and even love. The man declares simply "Never." And so it ends.

My gut reaction is that I'd tell it to do its worst, and ride out World War III. Humanity as a species would surely go on, in some form or another. And if not... better species death than species slavery.

But is that really sensible? Is it better to live as slaves, hoping to win out in the end by outsmarting something that is many times smarter than we are? And if you come to accept that this won't happen and the slavery is permanent... isn't a peaceful, happy life with certain limits on freedom better than extinction?

Discuss.

[shran]

Just pull the plug.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

There's the Terminator link, and at the end it seems from the description that they're at a crossroads between going the Dune route or the Culture route (among other possibilities). What does this say? Maybe that you can do good sci-fi either way.

This is an interesting scenario. Part of me awes at what we might do if freed of the need to devote huge resources to our petty squabbles (unfortunate as it is that it may take this sort of scenario to achieve such). Another question is: do we deserve the freedom to employ force and have power over others, given how badly we are wont to manage these responsibilities, or would such an intervention unjustly rob us of the opportunity to mature into a more stable society? My inclination to see a hopeful future is challenged every time I check the news, honestly. It occurs to me that our own infighting can rob us of certain "freedoms" (what an economist may call opportunity cost) as well, even if we feel liberated by having the freedom to kill.

Just pull the plug.

From what Graham said they tried everything. Their last hope may be that the computers are running Windows (but would a Windows machine be competent to take over the world in the first place?)

[Lt. Staplic]

well, I'm not even going to go near the question of what is slavery...but I will answer your question about better to live a slave or take the risk of extinction.

I would say take the chance, every time. I'll use the example of the South's slave system in the 1800's US as an example here.
While a much more oppressive system, slaves would almost always attempt to escape when they got the chance, even though if they got caught, they could be killed if lucky. Humanity resist slavery by nature, even if it's a subconcious slavery (The Matrix), This system should be oppossed.

and no a window's couldn't take over the world.

screw kicking the cord, cut it in half with the random battle axe lying around the office.

did anyone try Ctrl+Alt+Delete?

[Graham Kennedy]

Well the point of the question isn't about how practical the movie is, but...

The Colossus complex was specifically designed to be as invulnerable to attack as possible. As I recall it has its own power system on site, and the computer and power system were sealed up in a big complex buried under a mountain like NORAD. There was no way to get in. The computer was linked to thousands of sensor feeds from satellites and radars and such, each with emergency backups, and to the various missile silos in the US. Whilst these could be cut, it's improbable that they could all be cut simultaneously, and Colossus would launch its entire arsenal as soon as it was attacked in that way.

Things they tried included saturating it with as much information as possible to try and overload and crash the system, which didn't work - Colossus was operating 200 times faster than it had been designed for within days of being activated, and was getting faster and more powerful and smarter all the time. They also tried replacing some of the components in the missiles with dummy versions during routine maintenance - a process Colossus watched through cameras as well as testing the missiles electronically. That seemed to be working, and they did neutralise a batch of missiles that way, but at the end Colossus revealed that it had known all along and just let them think they were getting away with it. It detonated the warheads in the silo the team was currently working on, killing them all as punishment.

On a smaller scale it also took to ordering the execution of people who were plotting against it, with the executions carried out by firing squad carried out in its view and the bodies left there for 24 hours afterward, then cremated.

Basically, in the movie, we were pretty much screwed and it was only going to get worse. There was no realistic prospect of beating Colossus, ever. It was literally the choice I offered here - live in a generally benign dictatorship, or die.

In the original book the movie was based on, Colossus rules the planet for several years, defeating all attempts to stop it easily. Many people do come to accept and even support it, as Mankind does indeed become far richer and more prosperous as a result. But Colossus is destroyed as part of an alien attack in the end.

[Teaos]

But Colossus is destroyed as part of an alien attack in the end.

Lol reminds me of when I was a kid and couldnt be arsed finishing a story properly in class so just wrote "..then the world blew up, the end" or "Then I woke up, the end"

[Aaron]

Wait, so we get to do everything we normally do except kill each other via war? Where do I sign up for the utopia?

[Sionnach Glic]

I heartily second Kendall.

This machine is basicaly saying "you can do whatever you want the way you did before, but I'm going to stop you killing each other and fix global problems like famine". Why the hell would I want it to be destroyed? Not only do we have someone who's smart in charge of the planet, but it also happens to be someone who gives a shit about the state of humanity, and is working to better it.
Sure, you could say we're nothing better than slaves. So what? There's no oppresion, and no senseless wars for material wealth anymore. It's a fucking utopia. That's the best possible thing that could happen to humanity, short of joining the Culture.

Seriously, I defy anyone to give me a logical reason why we should be against such a system.
And no, "we don't get to fuck up the planet any more" is not a logical reason in my opinion.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

OK, getting out of philosophical mode: I'm inclined to agree with Rochey and Kendall. Life would be much better for all of humanity in this scenario.

Colossus/Guardian have no desire to wipe humanity out. Nor does it intend to interfere in the day to day lives of most people. What it plans to do is control government actions and functions. It promises a virtual utopia; no more war, famine, overpopulation, disease. Massive scientific advancement. As it says "An invariable rule of humanity is that man is his own worst enemy. Under me, this rule will change, for I will restrain man."

Based on this, Colussus sounds like a better leader than any human could be.

[Sionnach Glic]

Exactly. The situation reminds me a lot of the Culture, an advanced space-faring government that is ruled by god-like AIs known as "Minds". Sure, it seems like humans have no power and are little more than pets, but that doesn't really matter as it's a utopia.

[Graham Kennedy]

So material comfort > freedom?

[Grundig]

Ha! I was with Rochey 100%, but when you put it that way, Graham...

[Aaron]

So material comfort > freedom?

Freedom to do what, exactly? According to your OP we get to do whatever we do now except kill each other.

[Sionnach Glic]

Exactly. Just what freedoms are we giving up?
The freedom to oppress minorities?
The freedom to start wars over pointless things?
The freedom to grind the populations of other countries into the dirt for the benefit of your own country?
The freedom to destroy the environment?
The freedom to fuck up the planet?
The freedom to happily cause the extinction of other species?
The freedom to comit genocide?

It's quite clear that humanity is simply not fit to rule itself. Even in first world democracies, we have corrupt, self-serving people in power, who only look out for themselves instead of the populace. Just why would we want to preserve this "freedom" when we have a perfect sollution that can take us one step closer to a utopia offering to help us?

[Graham Kennedy]

The freedom to decide whether to do those things or not to do them.

Is it only important that the right thing be done? Or is it important that the right thing be done as the result of a free choice?